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  • Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

    I am posting this for Tom Prentice ...

    After this past weekend, given the conditions, the existing fog light rule is not effective unless you are straight on to the rear of the car you are following.

    If you are drifting through a corner, following a car at the same angle, (drifting), there is no way you can see a halogen light from the side of the drifting car.

    I would like to suggest trying an amber strobe light that can be seen from any angle, such as we use on plow pickup trucks.

    Perhaps these would be even better mounted on a post for greater visibility.
    Or Maybe a red flag on a whip antenna.

    I know for a fact that with Grahams MR2, on an angle, when I did see his car, I did not see any lights.

    Graham told me with Scotty's car facing him with the lights on the back, he did not see him.

    A strobe light would have been visible from any angle ...

    Respectively submitted by TOM PRENTICE ...

    for consideration at spring meeting...
    Last edited by S.S.NITEMARE; 01-27-2009, 09:44 PM.
    Ice Racing will always be a Black art! So ... In order to finish first, ... first you must Finish!

    CASC-OR Ice Race Director
    Toronto Autosport Club Ice Race Organizer
    Minden Kin Club Member
    District 8 Secretary Kin Canada
    Car Number 1
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

    Not a bad idea...remember...i've been saying stud cars should have a differently coloured side light all along...

    Best course of action at this point....find some lights (i'm sure Tom can come up with some), and volunteer to put them on competitors cars for testing. I don't know if Tom's getting back out this year, but have him put a light on whatever he runs. Nothing is better than evidence...remember when we did the Fog Light thing...were all talking in the dead of summer about what's the best option, with no actual data. Once a couple volunteered and put lights on cars, we had them mandatory the very next season for everyone.

    I think the Fog-light does work...when i watched videos of "the wreck" last year, you knew something bad was happening because the lights disappeared...just no one clued in...

    After seeing the pictures of that accident...i have to say, i'd contemplate wearing my HANS if i ever run studs again...
    Chris
    Old School Motorsports

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

      I think it's a great idea... these massive crashes in studs need to stop....

      After seeing the pictures of that accident...i have to say, i'd contemplate wearing my HANS if i ever run studs again...
      Stef wears his "haas device" everytime he's in studs... and i don't blame him...
      Lisa Shaw
      Class 2 #185

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

        Originally posted by Do It Sidewayz View Post
        Not a bad idea...remember...i've been saying stud cars should have a differently coloured side light all along...

        Best course of action at this point....find some lights (i'm sure Tom can come up with some), and volunteer to put them on competitors cars for testing. I don't know if Tom's getting back out this year, but have him put a light on whatever he runs. Nothing is better than evidence...remember when we did the Fog Light thing...were all talking in the dead of summer about what's the best option, with no actual data. Once a couple volunteered and put lights on cars, we had them mandatory the very next season for everyone.

        I think the Fog-light does work...when i watched videos of "the wreck" last year, you knew something bad was happening because the lights disappeared...just no one clued in...

        After seeing the pictures of that accident...i have to say, i'd contemplate wearing my HANS if i ever run studs again...
        Chris, I think Tom is coming up with something, if not this weekend then next ...
        Ice Racing will always be a Black art! So ... In order to finish first, ... first you must Finish!

        CASC-OR Ice Race Director
        Toronto Autosport Club Ice Race Organizer
        Minden Kin Club Member
        District 8 Secretary Kin Canada
        Car Number 1
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

          Originally posted by RSR Racing View Post
          Stef wears his "haas device" everytime he's in studs... and i don't blame him...
          Wrong device there Lisa ...
          Ice Racing will always be a Black art! So ... In order to finish first, ... first you must Finish!

          CASC-OR Ice Race Director
          Toronto Autosport Club Ice Race Organizer
          Minden Kin Club Member
          District 8 Secretary Kin Canada
          Car Number 1
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

            My 3 cents:

            Penny #1) Many times on the Saturday of that fateful first weekend qualifier I couldn't see the rearward facing 55 watt fog lights on the car right in front of me. Therefore I am not sure what good any other form of lighting will be even if you are looking right at it unless it can magically penetrate a fog of frozen ice crystals and snow. Consider even if you could see the light in front of you you cannot see the car nor the banks nor the track so you cannot tell if that car is headed for or is already in trouble so do you just keep following that light?

            Penny #2) halfway through lap 2 of that same qualifier I seriously considered pulling off the line and stopping because about 75% of the time i was just guessing where the dam track was let alone where the cars were!

            Penny #3) after experiencing the force of a head on collision like I did and witnessing the rearend collision out my passenger side window with the resulting injuries I am seriously considering upgrading my helmet and including a Hans device and I am wondering if this shouldn't be considered mandatory for inclusion in the rules for the menard class.


            In the meantime, even before any other solution is tried, may I suggest that there be an assessment made on a race by race basis by the clerk of the course as to whether or not it is safe to continue racing after monitoring visibility conditions after say a couple laps have been completed. If deemed unsafe then red flag the race. Once we have a permanent working solution this can be lifted.
            sigpic SACEWE!!!
            Minden House, S/\Ctionizer
            Car #24

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

              What about upping the wattage to 100w with one of these? They might shine through the snow a bit more...
              1983 Mazda Rx-7 Ice Racer TLMC
              Sponsored by:Bartlett's Towing

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

                Making the HANS mandatory in stud classes will 100% spell the END of stud racing....forever.

                It's not as simple as just requiring a HANS device.

                you will not need to require SA rated helmets (we should anyways....especially with cages).

                We will HAVE to clamp down on belt rules....currently we can use expired belts, brings the costs WAY down. You'll have to make belts at the very least SFI rated, which will need replace every 2 years. FIA belts would be good for 5 years.

                We will HAVE to outlaw "stock" seats...and make FIA approved racing seats mandatory....even Aluminum "racing" seats are not enough....

                We'll also have to up our CAGE regs pretty seriously.

                I'd be comfortable wearing my HANS because i personally have all the stuff, and my cars are prepped to this level..but 90% of the cars are not...

                I'm all for safety...but those items will cost more than even the best prepared "stud car" in the field.
                Chris
                Old School Motorsports

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

                  Originally posted by Do It Sidewayz View Post
                  Making the HANS mandatory in stud classes will 100% spell the END of stud racing....forever.

                  It's not as simple as just requiring a HANS device.

                  you will not need to require SA rated helmets (we should anyways....especially with cages).

                  We will HAVE to clamp down on belt rules....currently we can use expired belts, brings the costs WAY down. You'll have to make belts at the very least SFI rated, which will need replace every 2 years. FIA belts would be good for 5 years.

                  We will HAVE to outlaw "stock" seats...and make FIA approved racing seats mandatory....even Aluminum "racing" seats are not enough....

                  We'll also have to up our CAGE regs pretty seriously.

                  I'd be comfortable wearing my HANS because i personally have all the stuff, and my cars are prepped to this level..but 90% of the cars are not...

                  I'm all for safety...but those items will cost more than even the best prepared "stud car" in the field.
                  I agree with what you said about seat belts. This weekend i had a scare in my first points race, the impact was great enough that my neck still kinda hurts. I was not wearing a 4pt harness like i usually am in my dads SSC car, and i could tell there was a HUGE difference between the harness and stock seat belts. 4pt seat belts are mandatory in studs are they not? if no, maybe they should be- or something even safer like what chris mentioned. I'm no expert but i think seat belts are one of the top three most important safety features along with a cage, and a properly maintained vehicle. (and many other things obviously)

                  there's my penny.
                  Emma Hughes
                  1990 Ford Festiva #148 TAC
                  2009 Bank Manager

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

                    I was not at the event in question with the big shunt, but I have previously raced in a vanilla milk shake ( I didn't know what I was getting into ) so I can imagine what the conditions were like. If you can not see the cars around you, or where the track is going, then you shouldn't be racing!

                    Both the Clerk of the Course and the CASC Steward have responsibility for the safe running of the event. I have seen race events delayed, postponed or cancelled for such things as rain, snow ( on the ground and in the air ) flood, hail, lightening and darkness. What is the problem if we now find ourselves, due to the spec. Menards, of snow fog under certain temperature conditions causing us not to be able to race due to safety considerations? I think some people have been looking at this problem through the wrong end of the telescope!

                    Before you say,' But we have always raced like this', consider the following. When I has first involved with road racing, cars had to have a 2 inch lap belt. The rule did not say it had to be fastened. Drivers wore tee shirts and shorts if they wished... some F Vee drivers wore lederhosen. Full face helmets, roll bars and cages, nomex and fuel cells, and HANS devices had not been invented yet. The racing community has been in a constant state of reaction to safety issues ever since, and I think that this is an example of a need to adjust. We have tried to adjust the vehicle standards with the 55 watt lights, but I can not see that this can possibly meet the challenge.

                    What I would like to propose to happen is this. When the weather is such that this snow fog may be an issue the Clerk, the Steward, the Ice Race Director and perhaps a couple of competitors meet and observe either stud practice or a special session involving a couple of cars so that together they can make a informed decision regarding whether or not it is safe to race. Letting the race start in order to see what happens might be too late. How do you safely red flag a race when the competitors can not see the lights? Also I feel that the observers who man the track lights should have input during all sessions. If they can not be sure that they could see any vehicle stopped on the track for any reason then the Clerk should be obligated to stop the race.

                    Remember that we do this for fun. There are no crowds to displease and no bags of cash up for grabs. We do this solely for ourselves to ourselves.

                    Regards.......................Richard

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

                      Although I no longer race (BTW I was the guy in the Acura that got hit twice), I thought I should add my 2 cents to this.

                      I am big on safety and think along the same lines as Chris. I was one of the first to run the 55 watt amber rear fog light. It works. However it is hard to see in the video of my accident that I was hit in the front! The rear of my car contacted the bank and spun my car around. I was facing forward. Then I was hit once in the front by nick (watch the video as his instincts kicked in and he tried to avoid the 'unknown" in the dust and get around it but remember he was on ice). Luckily he tried. He only caught my front left corner with his front left. Otherwise it would have been a direct hit head on!

                      After Nick hit me the car spun 270 and I was sideways with the DS facing traffic. The next hit from Lee was worse. His Civic T-boned my car from the b-pillar forward. That hit from what I recall is the one that sheared off my front wheel assembly (wheel, hub, rotor 1/2 the cv axle, lower control arm and tie rod - all broke!).

                      What helped me out in 2 totally different types of hits was the following:

                      Full cage: Not just a roll bar. I even had a bar stitch welded along the rocker and well as a diagonal bar down from the mid hoop to th bottom of the a-pillar. That bar bent slightly and the a-pillar bar curved as well. Only part of a weld opened. (Bar did not crack).

                      Seat: I had an FIA approved momo seat. A decent one that fit my body. It held me in place especially on the T-bone impact.

                      Race harness: Leaf 5-point race harness. Thats 5-point not 4 point. It was about 2-3 years old.

                      Helmet: A new approved snell approved Helmet.

                      This accident was one that may never happen again. I was forward facing and completely stopped in mid track. (Trust me I was looking for reverse - I knew what was coming! ).

                      What the ice racing community must do is test out next year side facing lights. They must be 55 watt as well AND easy to find out there.

                      There could be a consideration to use amber on the sides (just like amber lights are used on the side fenders of some street cars) and for the rear have 1 centre mounted red light on the roof.

                      Rear is red, sides are amber. these can esily be purchased for reasonable prices.

                      Remember: Costs must be kept down for this sport so I would not support a $1000 Hans device and the appropriate $400-$1000 SA helmet. People just can't afford this. If you are doing this then a properly inspected rally cage would be required first.

                      Proper lights for visibilty is what is needed. But keep it simple. Strobe lights are a) super bright in fact too bright b) and extremely annoying. The bright amber light would be more effective in my opinion. It is proven to work on the back of the cars and it WILL work on the sides.

                      As for not racing when there is dust.... Consider this ... dust occurs in cold weather when there is guaranteed stud racing. In warm weather there is no stud racing.

                      Try the extra side lights and go from there. But don't just sit there wondering what may work. Someone should try this for the next 1-2 weekends for a test and put it to a vote as a rule change for 2010.

                      Alll the best everyone
                      Jeff Lehmann, Burlington ON
                      2005 Outback
                      2015 Soul

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Proposed Menard Class rule Change ...

                        I have run in S3 for 4 years now, my car has a proper 6 pt cage with ladder door bars and "shatterproof" lexan windows. I run Sparco JR seats, Leaf 4 points, full face Arai GP5 helmet with a HANS (I think I was the first guy to ever wear a HANS) Can't get much safer than that (excluding nomex etc).....and knock on wood....I have never had a serious shunt to test out my equipment. But if that day does come, I feel I am the most prepared. Studs is dangerous fast racing...Find the budget for safety before you find the car to enter.

                        I run 4 running lights....Rear, Roof (foglight) and one on each "C" pillar. No one asked me to, it cost $10 more and took 20 extra min to wire up.

                        I understand the budget problem though....Luckily I already had the safety equipment.

                        If you do get a HANS, be sure to upgrade to the 'swivel' kit.....you don't even know the HANS is on.....without it you can't barely look out the side window.
                        Todd McCall - Team Fin

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