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  • #61
    Re: when is a car too heavy?

    What he said. And, I generally use grippier tires on the front and less grippy ones on the rear to help the car rotate. (in RTI). You need to experiment with the tires to figure out what you are comfortable with. My car has a hydraulic hand brake that applies the rear brakes only that is helpful on occasion. I don't use it all the time. Really fast guys like Brian Nielsen (or Eric) manage with less rear grip than I am comfortable with. I drove Brian's car (Civic) on the last weekend. I am sure I was slower in it than I would have been in my Corolla, except the Corolla was broken. It all comes down to how you drive. After nine years of this, I still learn something new every year.

    One more thing. If money is no object, then buy a Quaife that locks on acceleration, and releases off throttle and under braking. There are a few out there, but not many. This is ice racing, after all. A few fwd folks weld their diffs, while others run open diffs. Mine is open, and will stay that way. Rwd stick axle cars are mostly welded.
    Gary

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    • #62
      Re: when is a car too heavy?

      Thanks Gary,with regards to diffs I prefer open but only because the plate type and welded diffs I tried in rwd SS destroyed the way the car drove and were swapped back to open asap.I welded the diff in my 1st car(civic rti)but only ever drove it that way so no comparisons to offer.All my fwd/awd cars since have been left open,my set-up guidline is a result of doing what it takes to get both front wheels to work as evenly as possible without resorting to a crutch(welded)that usually makes one area marginally better while making another worse.
      I would avoid a plate type diff unless you can find a one way(accel only),also not sure how well a helical would work as they revert back to an open diff unless theres enough grip on the inside wheel to allow to function.One wheel on ice the other on something better is enough to cause the problem apparently-two wheels on ice means??.

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      • #63
        Re: when is a car too heavy?

        Originally posted by thgear View Post
        but you have to understand that for an outsider, especially someone that's been studying the physics of asphalt racing for so long, it's hard to just accept the fact that everything has to be thrown out the window and tested through the hands and feet on actual race day
        This personal opinion is coming from a guy who raced his DD Miata in AutoX just last summer, wanted to race it again this summer but decided that the chassis & engine wouldn't last without more money thrown at it (that I didn't want to throw at it), so I thought: what the hell... I'll ice race it! No prior studying done, no prior winter racing experience... compared to asphalt, there is no similarity. You can analyse the hell out it, but while your busy performing your computations, I'm having a ball, driving sideways @ 60km/hr.

        The way I see it is you have a free car, and no Ice Race experience. If you feel that the car is holding you back (mid-season) than just go buy the car you want. If not, then you just saved a couple hundred bucks. I really don't see a downside to using it, unless you plan on winning the series your first year (which I'm not saying isn't possible... just that obviously there are better cars that you know of that are more appropriate).

        EDIT: I will note that we had a Jetta A4 & a Golf (can't remember if Mk3 or Mk4) place 2nd & 3rd respectively in FWD class this year (we have few competitors so we only have 3 classes: FWD, RWD & 4WD classes). A Saturn took 1st in FWD.
        Last edited by Scruffy; 04-26-2013, 09:53 PM. Reason: Removed picture
        Dakota
        '95 Mustang GT (STU#195)|Legend (FMod#84)
        http://www.youtube.com/user/thegreatscruff/videos

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        • #64
          Re: when is a car too heavy?

          Tom, you should create a racing advice blog with membership fee.
          #53 Toyota Tercel 4WD
          #53 Toyota MR2

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          • #65
            Re: when is a car too heavy?

            Originally posted by andrey7474 View Post
            Tom, you should create a racing advice blog with membership fee.
            Thanks but I think it helps the sport to grow if newbies bring a car set-up for ice and can be enjoy being competitive fairly quickly instead of getting frustrated and not coming back.I know if I wasn't the stubborn bugger I am I might have given up as not one person offered me any advice when I started.The wheels were wood back then and a bitch to tractionize correctly without knowing the tricks.

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            • #66
              Re: when is a car too heavy?

              Originally posted by thgear View Post
              but you have to understand that for an outsider, especially someone that's been studying the physics of asphalt racing for so long, it's hard to just accept the fact that everything has to be thrown out the window and tested through the hands and feet on actual race day

              Serge, that's what makes it fun. Rubber to ice is a fair bit more like rallying i.e you don't know what you are going to get at any individual corner. Not uncommon to have cars on a bunch of different lines at the same corner. Often difficult to predict who is going to be fastest at that.

              SS driving seems much more like Time-Attack but I'm sure the SS guys will tell you there is still a lot of unpredictability to the track even if there is not the same variety of "race" lines.
              Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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              • #67
                Re: when is a car too heavy?

                Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                Not uncommon to have cars on a bunch of different lines at the same corner. Often difficult to predict who is going to be fastest at that.
                I've noticed that most people are actually constantly changing their line to find where the traction is (@MCO anyways). As a line gets driven smooth, it must be altered to find an area less polished. It was those that didn't change up their lines that suffered.

                Every lap was different, and you had to be thinking about it a lap in advance. Where is the grip going to be here next lap, and where do I need to be coming in from to capitalize on it? (Logically, I wouldn't think that this is the same for SS, but IDK)
                Dakota
                '95 Mustang GT (STU#195)|Legend (FMod#84)
                http://www.youtube.com/user/thegreatscruff/videos

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                • #68
                  Re: when is a car too heavy?

                  Imo with SS you need to stay on the ice and off the snow unless the snow is stuck to the ice.But you need to know its stuck before you toss it in there with hope and prayer,and if you are using a snow line you will need to adjust nearly every line as the berm gets used/moved.If the snow "looked" stuck but isn't and you try and use it you will most likely be in the running for "bank manager of the year".My advice is to watch Scotty the snow line master,if he's on the ice stay away from the snow.
                  I've never timed laps but I think SS gets faster as the race goes on due to us scratching our own traction into the ice.

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                  • #69
                    Re: when is a car too heavy?

                    Originally posted by max attack View Post
                    also not sure how well a helical would work as they revert back to an open diff unless theres enough grip on the inside wheel to allow to function
                    i have one (Quaife). it works very well when there is a grip. otherwise quite useless.
                    #53 Toyota Tercel 4WD
                    #53 Toyota MR2

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                    • #70
                      Re: when is a car too heavy?

                      Originally posted by andrey7474 View Post
                      i have one (Quaife). it works very well when there is a grip. otherwise quite useless.
                      About what I figured although the way I set-up for an open diff encourages grip to both drive wheels(across same axle obviously)so that could make the quaife behave better on slick days.I can't really see an lsd improving an MR2 except under some weird ice days,the one I drove a couple times this year was sideways spinning both rears the second my big toe got even close to the throttle and that was trying to baby it in 3rd all the way around.

                      I forgot about the other build you were curious about,V70R awd wagon with 5 speed swap and breathed on 5 cyl easily over 300hp.Wheelbase is looong for stability,LARGE front and rear overhangs for maximum weight shifting that also double as nice big crumple zones for pushing tercels outa the way.

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                      • #71
                        Re: when is a car too heavy?

                        Originally posted by max attack View Post
                        LARGE front and rear overhangs for maximum weight shifting that also double as nice big crumple zones for pushing tercels outa the way.
                        lol
                        #53 Toyota Tercel 4WD
                        #53 Toyota MR2

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