SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

[James Mewett]

SoloSprint will be holding a technical meeting at the Delta Chelsea in Markham on October 27, 2007 from 1 - 5 pm, prior to the SoloOntario Banquet. Solo 2 will be having their meeting at the same location from 9 am to 1 pm.

In accordance with section 3.10.1 of the SoloSprint Regulations "Any interested SoloSprint competitor may submit a proposed future regulation change regarding vehicle modifications." This meeting is your opportunity to do so or to speak on any aspect of the SoloSprint Regulations and to propose any changes to them.

Prior to this meeting the CCC will be preparing an analysis of this year's results. This may lead the CCC to recommend changes to the Regulations. If so, such changes will be introduced for discussion at this meeting.

James Mewett
SoloSprint Car Classification Committee Chair

[Dave Barker]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

How about PIPing aero devices under the suspension section?

1 PIP for spitter and 1 PIP for wing

Spec tire anyone?

Pipping ubers may be difficult now that we have the Super Uber BFG R1

[thgear]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

How about PIPing aero devices under the suspension section?

1 PIP for spitter and 1 PIP for wing

Spec tire anyone?

Pipping ubers may be difficult now that we have the Super Uber BFG R1

what about high quality OEM wings, a-la STI

or how about the small things like James's little venturi little niblets at the back of his roof line

aftermarket sleek side mirrors and so forth.

i propose "1 pip for any aero mods for the front of the vehicle" and "1 pip for anything at the rear" just to cover more ground.

[James Mewett]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

How about PIPing aero devices under the suspension section?

1 PIP for spitter and 1 PIP for wing

Remember that any pipworthy mod must be clearly defined, and must have a performance benefit of approximately 0.2 seconds lap time per PIP.

If we were to address aero mods, they would likely have to go into the regular PIP section, not suspension, because logically aero does not follow the suspension convergence model. Likely we would have to allow a range of aero mods without penalty, as for example in CTCC. Exceed those limits and you get pipped.

As Serge points out, factory aero mods should not be exempt, especially if we agree aero does not fit into the sPIPs. A suspension index bump can't logically be used to address a non-sPIPable mod. One plan might be to pip any wing you would be embarrased to be seen on the street with - that would be one way to address the STis

Of course the issue of how much a given aero mod is worth in terms of lap time has not really been determined.

[Rob McAuley]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

Some people have complained about racers bringing well prepared cars on trailers to events. This may discourage newbies from coming out with their lightly modded street cars.

What about charging pips for holding a race license?

Someone running their race car at a familiar track holds a huge advantage over other competitors.

Charge 2-5 pips for anyone with a Class A (non-rookie racer) license.

[MazdaMatt]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

I don't think that my trailered highly modified del sol has any chance against a stock porche... the pips are made for evening out the field, so my del sol is evened out.

Aero mods are TOUGH to pip. They matter more at higher speeds... so should they be worth more pips as you classed higher? A big wing on a sentra at the DDT is worthless, a small wing on a V8 240 could have huge benefits at GP... Has aero been a major factor in the standings so much that it has to be adressed?

Are we starting another 30 page discussion thread here? Maybe these things should best be left to the meeting... Unfortunately I (and many others) can't make it.

[ADAM]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

so far aero has been a non issue..when you compare it to uber tires...




SPEC tire....and pips for ubers and negative pips for street tires!!!

[thgear]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

so far aero has been a non issue..when you compare it to uber tires...




SPEC tire....and pips for ubers and negative pips for street tires!!!

*bangs adams head againts the table

dude you already know the impact of charging negative pips for stuff,

we dont want to promote use of street tires since there are plenty of sneaky competitiors out there.

[ADAM]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

I like the idea of either pips for all R's..or negative pips for streets...


wouldnt it be nice to just show up in your sports car at solo 1 ...drive it and know its fairly classed? without having to have another set of rims ect...?


i know i would like that ..i would bring my 911 out a few times..on streets....why not

[pigeon]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

SPEC tire....and pips for ubers and negative pips for street tires!!!

Since it is the drivers responsibility to maximize the use of their PIPs for any given modification, how are tires really any different?

Keeping all other things equal, a car with Hoosiers will be faster than the car with Toyos. The same goes for most other modifications as well, for example suspension. Keeping all other things equal the car with the custom made Moton race setup will be faster than the car with the Eibach Prokit and Tokico shocks, yet they get charged the same PIPs.

Just as it is the drivers responsibility to maximize their suspension PIPs, it is also the drivers responsibility to maximize their tire choice.

In defense of the Toyo user (or the Eibach/Tokico user), we all don't have the same budget. In defense of the Hoosier user (or the Moton user), its not only about money - there is also strategy and experience needed to be able to optimize Hoosier use (or to tune a Moton setup).

To properly tune a full coilover setup, you need to have some knowledge and experience with suspension design and modification. You need to know the effects of rebound, compression, and spring rate changes, and how it will affect the particular vehicle in question. To actually use Hoosiers for a full season, you need to know when and where to run them to maximize tire life. Can't use it in the rain - not a rain tire, don't want to use it during lapping - reduces life and adds another heat-cycle to them, don't want to use it when you're new to a track - because you can't drive at 10/10ths anyways. Then you gotta learn what pressures they work best at, and how long they take to warm up as they age. Proper use of suspension, experience, proper use of tires, and optimizing a particular setup within the ruleset guidelines is what seperates a competitive driver from a non-competitive driver.

Most people won't argue that Hoosiers are faster, but does it justify more PIPs when its usage is not really that different than any other modification to the car? There is an advantage to Hoosiers, and there is an advantage to AWD, but PIPing them seems like a move more in the direction of a spec series and less in the direction of a "race your daily driver grassroots" series.

[thgear]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

while the maximization rule holds true, we are trying to minimize areas where this maximization might occur.

by initiating a spec tire, you take tire choice out of the equation, you take that "maximizing game" out of the equation, and you rely more on driver skill to differentiate drivers

forcing everyone to submit their official race weights would also help reduce this maximizing philosophy, since people wont try to squeeze within the given rulesets

making everyone submit a dyno would also be helpful.

[Tashko]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

by initiating a spec tire, you take tire choice out of the equation, you take that "maximizing game" out of the equation, and you rely more on driver skill to differentiate drivers

Yeah, but then you have to determine max tire widths for different cars. Some cars in the same class and with different drivetrains will not be able to fit the same tire size. People will complain that the spec. tire is too narrow for their car's power, weight, drivetrain, etc. and gives an advantage to another car.

It would be better to PIP tires based on their performance. 0 pips for tire x and +/- pips for uber/slow tires.

[thgear]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

Yeah, but then you have to determine max tire widths for different cars. Some cars in the same class and with different drivetrains will not be able to fit the same tire size. People will complain that the spec. tire is too narrow for their car's power, weight, drivetrain, etc. and gives an advantage to another car.

It would be better to PIP tires based on their performance. 0 pips for tire x and +/- pips for uber/slow tires.

we dont have to force tire sizes on to competitors, just the compound.

[MazdaMatt]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

If you pick RA1 (the obvious choice) I have to sell my brand new tires and my brand new rims (1100 total). I will not do that, i will just go lose in Mod instead. RA1's are not made in my desired tire size.

If any of you recall my 'track exit' last year at the DDT (the incident involving a fence post) you will understand my support of NOT encouraging street tires. They are simply UNSAFE on a race track if you are pushing limits or inexperienced. I took a set of General Exclaim UHP's on the GP track for 2 sets of 3 laps and the tread was literally peeling off in 6-8 inch strands. I could hear them whipping the bottom of my car as i drove away from the track. If i tried to do 4 solosprint sessions where i was pushing the limits, i wouldn't have had tires under my car.

The reason ubers don't fit the maximizing rule and shocks do is this... Shock differences havn't split the field, tires have. The rules are designed for the issues of the day. If someone comes out with magic shocks that hold the road always, they will get pipped.

[pigeon]

Re: SoloSprint Competitor Meeting 1-5 pm October 27, 2007

by initiating a spec tire, you take tire choice out of the equation, you take that "maximizing game" out of the equation, and you rely more on driver skill to differentiate drivers

forcing everyone to submit their official race weights would also help reduce this maximizing philosophy, since people wont try to squeeze within the given rulesets

making everyone submit a dyno would also be helpful.

The spec tire sounds reasonable. Race weight and dyno submissions are less reasonable, because people who only compete in 1 or 2 events a year may not be willing to pay this added expense and may discourage new competitors.

If any of you recall my 'track exit' last year at the DDT (the incident involving a fence post) you will understand my support of NOT encouraging street tires. They are simply UNSAFE on a race track if you are pushing limits or inexperienced. I took a set of General Exclaim UHP's on the GP track for 2 sets of 3 laps and the tread was literally peeling off in 6-8 inch strands. I could hear them whipping the bottom of my car as i drove away from the track. If i tried to do 4 solosprint sessions where i was pushing the limits, i wouldn't have had tires under my car.

When you hit the pole, it was because you were driving beyond the limit of the street tires... it wasn't the tires fault. That year I did that same event on street tires, and this year 2 other novices I attended the events with also competed on streets. One did for 2 out of the 4 events he competed in, and the other did it for 4 out of the 6 events he competed in. No issues with either of them.

The reason ubers don't fit the maximizing rule and shocks do is this... Shock differences havn't split the field, tires have. The rules are designed for the issues of the day. If someone comes out with magic shocks that hold the road always, they will get pipped.

I don't think I follow exactly what you mean, care to elaborate?