Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

[thekid]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

In motorsport nobody cares if you are 2nd by one tenth of a second or one minute. You are second, that's all there is to it. The same can be said of the difference between third and fourth etc. When you look at any podium in motor racing, it does not say "97.3% of first" underneath the driver who is standing on the second tier. A scoring system must give equal merit to points given for every respective placing in every class.

The current points system might give one driver 98.3 points for second in GT1 while giving another driver 99.4 points for finishing in the same position in GT2. Nowhere in motor racing is this an acceptable method of measuring finishing positions.

This is where I think you are wrong. Motorsport does not mean only "RACING". Motorsport includes time trials be it at a track or in a parking lot, and both of these systems use raw times for determining winners. They always have.

Racing on the other hand is another form of motorsport that uses points.

These are different forms of motorsport, and it sounds like you believe there should one form of scoring for all motorsport, when in fact there are completely different "sports".

Also to one of your other points, someone could easily finish 2nd at every event but one in a Race Series (where points are awarded 100 for a win, 95 for second, 90 for third, etc), winning that one event, but out place the person who finished first at every event but one, and finished 20th at that last race. Race series reward laps completed, and poles. Assuming that the pole is worth 5 points and there are 10 races in the series.

Driver A = 9 wins + 1x20th place + 5 poles + 200 laps completed (1 pt per lap) = 900 + 5 + 25 + 200 = 1130
Driver B = 1 win + 9 x 2nd place + 5 poles + 200 laps completed (1 pt per lap) = 855 + 100 + 25 + 200 = 1180

Drive B with only one victory and 9 2nd place finishes out scores Driver A who had 9 victories and Wins the the Canadian Touring Car Championship. (Not a true story, but entirely possible using a RACE scoring system.

[lowrider]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

This is where I think you are wrong. Motorsport does not mean only "RACING". Motorsport includes time trials be it at a track or in a parking lot, and both of these systems use raw times for determining winners. They always have.

Racing on the other hand is another form of motorsport that uses points.

These are different forms of motorsport, and it sounds like you believe there should one form of scoring for all motorsport, when in fact there are completely different "sports".

Also to one of your other points, someone could easily finish 2nd at every event but one in a Race Series (where points are awarded 100 for a win, 95 for second, 90 for third, etc), winning that one event, but out place the person who finished first at every event but one, and finished 20th at that last race. Race series reward laps completed, and poles. Assuming that the pole is worth 5 points and there are 10 races in the series.

Driver A = 9 wins + 1x20th place + 5 poles + 200 laps completed (1 pt per lap) = 900 + 5 + 25 + 200 = 1130
Driver B = 1 win + 9 x 2nd place + 5 poles + 200 laps completed (1 pt per lap) = 855 + 100 + 25 + 200 = 1180

Drive B with only one victory and 9 2nd place finishes out scores Driver A who had 9 victories and Wins the the Canadian Touring Car Championship. (Not a true story, but entirely possible using a RACE scoring system.

Well perhaps you are right. I come from a 'racing' background and maybe it's time for me to change my deep-rooted thinking on these matters.

[G-ForceJunkie]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

In motorsport nobody cares if you are 2nd by one tenth of a second or one minute. You are second, that's all there is to it. The same can be said of the difference between third and fourth etc. When you look at any podium in motor racing, it does not say "97.3% of first" underneath the driver who is standing on the second tier. A scoring system must give equal merit to points given for every respective placing in every class.

The current points system might give one driver 98.3 points for second in GT1 while giving another driver 99.4 points for finishing in the same position in GT2. Nowhere in motor racing is this an acceptable method of measuring finishing positions.

With this system a driver could conceivably finish a 'close' second in four or five of his or her best races and upset the overall standings by having only one great event and creating, for example, a two second gap between himself and the second place competitor. That is not an acceptable outcome in any form of motor sport. There has to be a system which allows competitors to fairly and equitably compete amongst each other within their given classes without skewing the results in an effort to achieve an 'overall' score. The current points system gives less merit to a drivers' six best placings throughout the season. In my view, that is an unacceptable scoring mechanism.

I am not saying that I have all the answers here, I know I don't. What I am saying is that this current scoring system creates many anomolies which are contrary to the true spirit of motor sport and this is certainly worthy of examination and revision.

I don't know about you, but I don't even call Solosprint racing, because it's not. When you're on the track, you're not 'racing' anyone but yourself, the only way you can possibly consider Solosprint a 'race' is because after you're done 'racing' there is a sheet that says where you placed based on a classification system.

James's last post was spot on.

[MazdaMatt]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

I think we can safely say that we're generally happy with the rules, the classing and the scoring. It is not written in stone as the sport changes constantly and one issue or another should be adressed each year, but to do a total re-write is just asking for many more issues all at once.

[thgear]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

I think we can safely say that we're generally happy with the rules, the classing and the scoring. It is not written in stone as the sport changes constantly and one issue or another should be adressed each year, but to do a total re-write is just asking for many more issues all at once.

happy? HA


my current issues with the current rule set:

scoring:

- people without a full class get stuck with PAX, creating a fictious opponent who's experience is the combined average of all the best drivers of all the other classes! its like taking Avi, Chris and Dave and mixing them all into one...

- propositioning, when soemone propositions another class, that class gets mixed in with the new class, and if you have enough people there then the points get skewed again

classing:

nothing done for aero mods

weight still not taken properly as a function of handling rather than acceleration

honda civics having a "worse" suspension than a vw golf....


there is quite a bit of work ahead of us...

[Steve2]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

I think you are losing the spirit of "solo" - this is, plain and simple, time trials, and is different than "racing" in that sense.

If you are 2nd because the best driver in the series is in your class, you get screwed every event. What if you are the only driver in your class? 10 pts each event? Or there are 3 or 4 drivers, but other classes have 12, where it is way harder to be competitive.

Also, rewarding consistency like that means the best/fastest guy would get screwed if they are pushing hard and have one 4-wheels-off session. no consistency points for that day means they could ftd every event, kill their class, and lose the series.

Also, your AWD vs. 2WD class system, not considering suspension and other mods, makes no sense, to me at least.

Not trying to hate here - good on ya for proposing SOMETHING, but don't get upset if people just plain don't agree with you.


Edit: just realized, I posted after reading only page 1... lots of my points were already brought up.

[jason_alt]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

happy? HA


my current issues with the current rule set:

scoring:

- people without a full class get stuck with PAX, creating a fictious opponent who's experience is the combined average of all the best drivers of all the other classes! its like taking Avi, Chris and Dave and mixing them all into one...

I fail to see much of a problem here. If you've somewhat optimized your car for the class you're in ( brakes, tires and suspension ) and honed your skills like the 'best drivers' have over the years, then beating pax should be attainable. I admit you have to fight for it, but it can be done. I think it's a fair and accurate representation of how someone is performing compared to the fast guys. I can't stress enough that to be competitive, a driver HAS to optimize their vehicle, but more importantly, their skillset. Maybe the pax modifiers could be looked at just a little more closely, but then again i'm not so sure.

propositioning, when soemone propositions another class, that class gets mixed in with the new class, and if you have enough people there then the points get skewed again

Maybe the class being propositioned shouldn't be 'punished' and scored the way it currently is. Maybe a proposition could be better defined as one who beats the pax value of the above class. In that case, it really shows you're handing it to the competition, and could be a better way to collect statistical information in order to fine tune the system, especially in the lower classes.

People cannot expect to bring average skills and an average car to the track and expect to take home a trophy. I think the current scoring system truly rewards those who work hard to build up their driving skills, closely familiarize themself with the track they compete on and optimally set-up their vehicles for its respective class.

[thgear]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

I fail to see much of a problem here. If you've somewhat optimized your car for the class you're in ( brakes, tires and suspension ) and honed your skills like the 'best drivers' have over the years, then beating pax should be attainable. I admit you have to fight for it, but it can be done. I think it's a fair and accurate representation of how someone is performing compared to the fast guys. I can't stress enough that to be competitive, a driver HAS to optimize their vehicle, but more importantly, their skillset. Maybe the pax modifiers could be looked at just a little more closely, but then again i'm not so sure.

nothing wrong with pax

what is wrong, is forcing someone to fight pax, while everyone else just fends off in their own class.

i just did a quick glance over the Event 9 results and the ones that i chewed up through pax.

the top 3 finishers did not even beat pax! only 4 of the top 10 finishers beat pax, and not even by much.

which is perfectly fine if EVERYONE was measured up against the same ruler.

Maybe the class being propositioned shouldn't be 'punished' and scored the way it currently is. Maybe a proposition could be better defined as one who beats the pax value of the above class. In that case, it really shows you're handing it to the competition, and could be a better way to collect statistical information in order to fine tune the system, especially in the lower classes.

People cannot expect to bring average skills and an average car to the track and expect to take home a trophy. I think the current scoring system truly rewards those who have worked hard on building up their driving skills and optimally set-up their vehicles for its respective class.

it does, but its just that some of the people who are vouching against my proposed idea keep taling about "class victories, and class wars" and so forth.

when the fact of the matter if i come 2nd place in my class by 1%, but the guy from a class below propositions my class, all of a sudden my 2nd place finish of 1% turns into a 3rd place at 5%!

i came here expecting a fight in my own class (what everyone keeps defending) and another class totaly ruins my fun... well thats not very nice.

[ScotcH]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

That's why I liked when James scored everyone against iPAX last year (for fun). The results were close, and didn't depend on how many people were in the classes ... everyone was scored against PAX, even the class winners with full classes. Definitely seemed pretty fair to me, as fas as an overall score is concerned.

[Slowpoke]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

i just did a quick glance over the Event 9 results and the ones that i chewed up through pax.

the top 3 finishers did not even beat pax! only 4 of the top 10 finishers beat pax, and not even by much.

Well, if the top three drivers in the series from three drifferent classes didn't beat PAX, then I think that IS a reason to revisit it the PAX Factors.

what is wrong, is forcing someone to fight pax, while everyone else just fends off in their own class.

If I were in an underfilled Touring class and the overall meant something to me, I'd try to form a "Touring Club" so that maybe some T3 guys compete in T2, and maybe a T1 guy takes off a swaybar to move down to T2... but so that you always have competition. That's not an option that Modified guys at the other end of the scale typically have, though. The class I chose to prep for was based on a lot of factors...

#1: Fun to drive
#2: Economically sustainable (in 2006 it was, anyway. )
#3: Good Competition
#4: Spread of club members in different classes.

Things seem to keep changing (or being proposed) that push me closer and closer to SGT1, where I really don't want to be.

i came here expecting a fight in my own class (what everyone keeps defending) and another class totaly ruins my fun... well thats not very nice.

If what you are only interested is a fight in your own class, then getting propositioned is not a huge problem; it doesn't affect the placement order within your own class.

[thgear]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

If I were in an underfilled Touring class and the overall meant something to me, I'd try to form a "Touring Club" so that maybe some T3 guys compete in T2, and maybe a T1 guy takes off a swaybar to move down to T2... but so that you always have competition. That's not an option that Modified guys at the other end of the scale typically have, though. The class I chose to prep for was based on a lot of factors...

#1: Fun to drive
#2: Economically sustainable (in 2006 it was, anyway. )
#3: Good Competition
#4: Spread of club members in different classes.

Things seem to keep changing (or being proposed) that push me closer and closer to SGT1, where I really don't want to be.
.

the underlying "spirit" of the sport should be fun for everyone regardless of anything (except maybe tires and brakes)

if i have to "choose a class to have fun", thats already going off tangent from the "spirit" of the series.

If what you are only interested is a fight in your own class, then getting propositioned is not a huge problem; it doesn't affect the placement order within your own class.

it does in the following scenario, you got 3 drivers in your class, A, B and C

driver A and B always have a rivavlry going, two events in a row driver A could not make it, and during those two days you get your ass handed to you from driver Z from a class below and you score shitty points

or worse yet, with only 2 drivers, you are now stuck against pax, and you score shitty points again, then when driver A returns, he goes back to kicking your ass, even if on average driver A never beats pax him/herself

[lowrider]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

It seems to me that a lot of these scoring issues are the result of trying to maintain too many classes. Couldn't we expand the classes to a pip range of say 7.5 instead of the current 5 pip spread?

[thgear]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

then you get too many underfilled classes....

the problem goes back to your argument againt "all the racing series"

usualy, in racing, you have a series, and you have rules, competitiors can either build their cars under the rules, or they can take a walk, end of story.

solosprint promotes the idea that you can bring ANY car to the track and DO WELL, IF your DRIVING SKILL is top notch

(Jason, this is where our percpetion of the series objectives differ) Having an "optimized" car should only throw you up a couple of classes, and so the deciding factor should still only be the personal skill level of the driver.

considering the amount of different cars out there, you can see how getting it all together is hard.

[thgear]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

It seems to me that a lot of these scoring issues are the result of trying to maintain too many classes. Couldn't we expand the classes to a pip range of say 7.5 instead of the current 5 pip spread?

why dont you go and reclass everyone and then show us the results....

[lowrider]

Re: Solo 1 Scoring & Classification Proposal

...considering the amount of different cars out there, you can see how getting it all together is hard.

Yes, this is very true. It seems overwhelming.