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looking back at the 2007 CSC

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  • #46
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by bbqman View Post
    With 100 entries, a 3rd day lapping/test day makes sense and allows 2 full days for competition.
    not many people have the free time to book a 3 day race weekend Carl, this is grassroots, remember.
    set tire pressures to winning!

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

      Originally posted by djphoebus View Post
      Here`s some additionnal comments from Marc:

      .... I still wonder how come licences were never checked? Does that mean that an unlicensed driver could have been signed off?

      _________________
      Marc
      directeur SoloSprint
      Scirocco 8v no 4 catégorie T2
      Hi Marc!
      No. Unlicenced competitors are not even allowed to register.
      For Ontario Drivers, the CASC-OR office provide us, periodically, with a list of licenced competitors. I personally check, prior to the event, that all registered participants are indeed licenced. No need for me to confirm with them or see the actuals Plastics at the event, although a lot of drivers present it.
      For Quebec Drivers, they were all asked in the registration form what type of licence they were holding. They all confirmed holding an FSAQ licence of some sort, and those that didn't, were issued one at the track.
      I don't see a reason why I shouldn't have believed them.
      Lesson learned for next year: Ask FSAQ for a list of licenced competitors.
      Thanks!
      Ana Santos

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

        Originally posted by thgear View Post
        run orders have always been fluid since day one

        run orders change constantly through out the day,

        run orders typicaly change after the fact, ie, yellow flags, or, weather changing conditions.

        if the grid marshals and timing KNOW IN ADVANCE the probability of a particular car, or a group of cars, running significantly faster than the rest, they will make the call to move them up the grid.

        the result is less time delay, less headaches for the timing guys, the marshals (esp marshals not all that familiar with our system)

        this is how it has always been.
        serge- I agree that the actual order of the cars changes from each heat as cars move up and down the standings...this is normal.
        But when i say the run "order" I mean, if we plan to run in <timed< order from the fastest to the slowest, it should stay like that. If we ever planned to run from the slowest to the fastest, it would stay like that too for the remainder of the day.
        In Ontario, you use heats....X Y Z so if we say that they run X first , then Y and then Z...it should stay like that.
        For example, if hypothetically all X cars were the most modified cars and they all ran dry slicks and their group is called to the line when a downpour begins, the only option for the organisers is to delay the event or run X group as is, regardless of tires ( we need to be prepared for all weather conditions, this is not NASCAR).

        If the Sunday schedule dictates that Z Y X is the new order, that is fine , so long as we know in the sups.

        What is wrong is to call a group to the grid and send cars out based on what organisers feel is safe when they look at the cars preparation at that moment.
        Actually, for safety sake, I suppose that the organiser can not allow a car to take to the track in a downpour if the car arrives on slicks. He would be classed DNS and again an arguement can made that the driver has the right to attempt a run in any case.
        Pushing said car back down the list for a later run in the order is just plain wrong.

        I guess there is a difference between posted "run order" and actual order in which cars run.
        One based on pre set sup rules, the latter based on the actual speed order.
        Carl Wener

        PERRY PERFORMANCE & COMPETITION

        450 662 8886
        carlwener@hotmail.com

        HJC-CANADIAN STILO IMPORTER-PERFORMANCE FRICTION -HAWK-HOOSIER-COBRA SEATS-SPARCO-AIMSPORTS

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

          Originally posted by thgear View Post
          not many people have the free time to book a 3 day race weekend Carl, this is grassroots, remember.
          You would be surprised at how many requests I recieved this year by Solo national participants that we hold our TLC Mosport lapping day on the Friday prior rather than the Monday after.

          At ASE it was an optional day that no one was forced to be at, however many noobs to the track took advantage to better prepare themselves for competition.
          Carl Wener

          PERRY PERFORMANCE & COMPETITION

          450 662 8886
          carlwener@hotmail.com

          HJC-CANADIAN STILO IMPORTER-PERFORMANCE FRICTION -HAWK-HOOSIER-COBRA SEATS-SPARCO-AIMSPORTS

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

            On Saturday the preliminary run order was X Y Z, X Y Z ,etc. but was changed to X Y Z in the morning and Z Y X in the afternoon forcing the Z competitors to run both run sessions in the wet while X group ran in the dry.

            I submitted a protest about the change of order from X Y Z in the morning but the organizer didn't agree, and the Stewards that are responsible for the fairness of the competition didn't understand their responsibilities and their power to force the organizer to change the run order to improve the fairness per our GCRs.

            We cannot forecast the weather but in a two day event where there are no dropped events and no second chances, the organizer and Stewards priority has to ensure fair competition for all competitors.

            On Sunday the organizer saw the light and ran the X Y Z order all day.

            JohnP

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

              Originally posted by bbqman View Post
              What is wrong is to call a group to the grid and send cars out based on what organisers feel is safe when they look at the cars preparation at that moment.
              Actually, for safety sake, I suppose that the organiser can not allow a car to take to the track in a downpour if the car arrives on slicks. He would be classed DNS and again an arguement can made that the driver has the right to attempt a run in any case.
              Pushing said car back down the list for a later run in the order is just plain wrong.
              First of all, I don't see anything indicated in the rules that says what order anyone should be gridded in out side of run groups. (Correct me if I'm wrong, and I've missed something.) So no rule was violated in pulling rain tire equipped cars to the front. It appears to be fully within the clerk's rights to send cars out in the order they feel best facilitates the running of the event. In our case on Saturday, the challenge was for every competitor to get a second session!

              I don't think that cars were pushed back because they weren't safe, they were pushed back because of their anticipated lap time based on the tires they had. Running slicks in a downpour can put you 15% to 20% off the times of the other cars in your class that are properly prepared. Even if as Marc suggested, they put the three rain prepped cars from the front of the group, and four cars on slicks at the back of the run group, in four laps the lead car would likely STILL catch the end of the unprepped cars and cause yellow flags and delay the event. Alternatively, the clerk would have to send out the four prepped cars for a five lap session, then the three unprepped cars, and STILL we would have a delay to the event.

              It appears to me that from the experience at the DDT in rain at Event #2, allowing cars with proper rain tires to run first facilitated the effective running of that event, and the National event on Day #1. This is not a method of cheating; there is reasonably close to equal chance that the rain will worsen as it will improve by the time the slick-equipped cars are called up to run together. (Approximately two sessions later.)

              Now, if a car at the front turned down the opportunity to run, hesitated, or wasn't in their car when they were called to run, that violates 1.8.5

              "A DNS (Did Not Start) is given if the competitor fails to leave the start position when directed to do so by the Clerk of the Course. All of the laps of that runshall be recorded as a DNS."

              I saw leniency given to at least one competitor during the national event though in this regard, but only on the Sunday. They were not at their car when they were called to the grid due to an emergency rest room break I believe after being with their car on the grid for over an hour. Call it organizers trying to be accomodating to the people who travelled far to be there.

              In a second incident, when I realized that one of my fellow competitors was going to end up missing the last run because he didn't have enough fuel and the pumps were closed early, I offered the fuel I had in the pits so that they could finish all the sessions. I think that person MIGHT have gotten to the grid late, but I don't think they missed their intended run position. Again, no protest from fellow people in the run group.

              Maybe leniency just plain shouldn't happen at Nationals. Organizers will be criticized whether they are or aren't, though.
              sigpic

              Stephen, SPDA VP, OTA Director, CCC Member
              OTA: SGT1 ! -=- CSCS: SSA #842

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                Originally posted by John P View Post
                On Saturday the preliminary run order was X Y Z, X Y Z ,etc. but was changed to X Y Z in the morning and Z Y X in the afternoon forcing the Z competitors to run both run sessions in the wet while X group ran in the dry.
                John, as far as I know, the order was NOT changed ... it was posted as XYZ ZYX in the morning (before the rains came!), and this how is stayed for Saturday.
                Arek Wojciechowski
                8legs Racing, SPC #77
                http://www.8legsRacing.com

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                  Originally posted by bbqman View Post
                  But when i say the run "order" I mean, if we plan to run in <timed< order from the fastest to the slowest, it should stay like that.
                  I thought the whole point of the run order (within X, Y, Z, etc., not the order of X, Y, Z) was to minimize yellow flagging. Yes, the major component of that is run time, but I believe the clerk has the right to re-order as he/she sees fit. Similarly, I believe that a competitor does not automatically DNF if they cannot make it to their designated gridding/re-gridding spot, e.g., they are indisposed and start out of order in the run group.

                  The rule Steve is quoting refers to 'start position,' not 'grid position.' The 'start position' is the point where the marshal waves you onto the track and you 'start' your timed run. Anything before that is a grid postion, (or a mock grid position), not a start position. You DNF if you can't start, not if you can't make it to the grid.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                    Arek, On Saturday at lunch the organizer specifically stated at the driver's meeting that the order was changed. Also, in preliminary organizer's E mails the organizer indicated the order was going to be X Y Z for both Saturday and Sunday. Only Sunday used the X Y Z order.

                    For the one shot National event the order should always be X Y Z so everyone has an equal chance at good and bad weather. That is fair.

                    JohnP

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                      Originally posted by John P View Post
                      Arek, On Saturday at lunch the organizer specifically stated at the driver's meeting that the order was changed. Also, in preliminary organizer's E mails the organizer indicated the order was going to be X Y Z for both Saturday and Sunday. Only Sunday used the X Y Z order.

                      For the one shot National event the order should always be X Y Z so everyone has an equal chance at good and bad weather. That is fair.

                      JohnP
                      I don't believe this is correct. There was a lot of discussion about whether the run order should be changed to try to accommodate the Z group but it was decided that it would not be changed.

                      The original run order XYZ ZYX is used to maximize the track time and minimize the movement of cars on and off the grid. In fair weather this works without problem. In wet weather (which of course cannot be predicted) cars will run on different track conditions but that cannot be helped. Even if the run order was XYZ XYZ there could still be a weather change within the X or Y or Z runs which cannot be predicted. Since we run rain or shine, that's what we have to live with.

                      Also, since propositioning is turned off during wet weather, you do not need to worry if another run group ran on a track drier or wetter than you did.

                      Overall, I think it was a very difficult day for the organizers, and they did as best a job as could be expected.
                      '11 Red STI #373


                      Keep right except to pass.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                        Originally posted by John P View Post
                        For the one shot National event the order should always be X Y Z so everyone has an equal chance at good and bad weather. That is fair.
                        Actually, I think it should be X Y Z on one day, then Z Y X on the other, and then viceversa for the next event. Or completely random determined at the beginning of the year. And I recall the situation that Walter did. Emails sent to the organizer from a competitor before the event certainly can't be counted as "official".

                        Small detail, but SOMEONE from X will complain that they always get the colder morning sessions, and someone from Z will complain that X always gets to pack up early.

                        And should co-driven cars not be allowed at National events? Or forced into the same run group to stop the inevitable arguments? We typically put the co-driven car into a separate run group, but that second run group can get significantly different weather conditions than the primary driver and screw up the class. In the case of SGT2 on Saturday, that was Gerry who was 48 seconds slower than the class winner. Can you imagine the arguments if it was the other way around? With 9 competitors in the 1:40's and Gerry sitting pretty with a 1:02?
                        sigpic

                        Stephen, SPDA VP, OTA Director, CCC Member
                        OTA: SGT1 ! -=- CSCS: SSA #842

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                          Originally posted by Slowpoke View Post
                          First of all, I don't see anything indicated in the rules that says what order anyone should be gridded in out side of run groups. (Correct me if I'm wrong, and I've missed something.) So no rule was violated in pulling rain tire equipped cars to the front. It appears to be fully within the clerk's rights to send cars out in the order they feel best facilitates the running of the event. In our case on Saturday, the challenge was for every competitor to get a second session!

                          I don't think that cars were pushed back because they weren't safe, they were pushed back because of their anticipated lap time based on the tires they had. Running slicks in a downpour can put you 15% to 20% off the times of the other cars in your class that are properly prepared. Even if as Marc suggested, they put the three rain prepped cars from the front of the group, and four cars on slicks at the back of the run group, in four laps the lead car would likely STILL catch the end of the unprepped cars and cause yellow flags and delay the event. Alternatively, the clerk would have to send out the four prepped cars for a five lap session, then the three unprepped cars, and STILL we would have a delay to the event.

                          It appears to me that from the experience at the DDT in rain at Event #2, allowing cars with proper rain tires to run first facilitated the effective running of that event, and the National event on Day #1. This is not a method of cheating; there is reasonably close to equal chance that the rain will worsen as it will improve by the time the slick-equipped cars are called up to run together. (Approximately two sessions later.)

                          Now, if a car at the front turned down the opportunity to run, hesitated, or wasn't in their car when they were called to run, that violates 1.8.5

                          "A DNS (Did Not Start) is given if the competitor fails to leave the start position when directed to do so by the Clerk of the Course. All of the laps of that runshall be recorded as a DNS."

                          I saw leniency given to at least one competitor during the national event though in this regard, but only on the Sunday. They were not at their car when they were called to the grid due to an emergency rest room break I believe after being with their car on the grid for over an hour. Call it organizers trying to be accomodating to the people who travelled far to be there.

                          In a second incident, when I realized that one of my fellow competitors was going to end up missing the last run because he didn't have enough fuel and the pumps were closed early, I offered the fuel I had in the pits so that they could finish all the sessions. I think that person MIGHT have gotten to the grid late, but I don't think they missed their intended run position. Again, no protest from fellow people in the run group.

                          Maybe leniency just plain shouldn't happen at Nationals. Organizers will be criticized whether they are or aren't, though.
                          Stephen, you bring to light an important fact. If there is no such rule about when cars run once called to the grid, in all fairness ( when weather conditions are changing) there should be one.
                          I know that in Quebec and most regions running Solo events, cars leave the grid in timed order.
                          Something to think about for sure.
                          Carl Wener

                          PERRY PERFORMANCE & COMPETITION

                          450 662 8886
                          carlwener@hotmail.com

                          HJC-CANADIAN STILO IMPORTER-PERFORMANCE FRICTION -HAWK-HOOSIER-COBRA SEATS-SPARCO-AIMSPORTS

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                            Originally posted by Slowpoke View Post
                            Actually, I think it should be X Y Z on one day, then Z Y X on the other, and then viceversa for the next event. Or completely random determined at the beginning of the year. And I recall the situation that Walter did. Emails sent to the organizer from a competitor before the event certainly can't be counted as "official".

                            Small detail, but SOMEONE from X will complain that they always get the colder morning sessions, and someone from Z will complain that X always gets to pack up early.
                            My argument for the XYZ,XYZ or ZYX,ZYX run order is that each group's runs are separated equally by 2 runs. 2ndrun=1strun+2.
                            Assuming the run order for the event is determined early enough in advance (more than 1 week) weather is completely random throughout the day. So all groups have the same probability of a change in conditions. But if one group runs back to back, there is less probability that the weather will change in such a short time.
                            It happened to work out bad for X, but it could have been the other way around too. Basically X was forced to put all their eggs in one basket (the midday basket)
                            Jonathan Weir
                            Number: 5
                            Class: Yours!
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                              Do we really need group? From what i see, running by group only slow the event more than anything else. It happen quite often during the CSC that we had to run 4 cars or less at a time because we didn't want to mix group...This has slow down the event quite a bit...

                              I think that classifying cars by their fastest time instead of class and sending the next 7 cars even if they are not in the same class/group will make the event run smoother for sure.

                              What's the reason being running group? and not mixing them if needed? from other comments it seems to have run like that for quite some time in Ontario...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

                                Originally posted by djphoebus View Post
                                Do we really need group? From what i see, running by group only slow the event more than anything else. It happen quite often during the CSC that we had to run 4 cars or less at a time because we didn't want to mix group...This has slow down the event quite a bit...

                                I think that classifying cars by their fastest time instead of class and sending the next 7 cars even if they are not in the same class/group will make the event run smoother for sure.

                                What's the reason being running group? and not mixing them if needed? from other comments it seems to have run like that for quite some time in Ontario...
                                The reason for the groups is Marshal assignments. We need people to know what group they run in so that they can marshal in the other groups. It would be great is we didn't have to marshal, but the reality is that it's a neccessary task unless we all want to add $50 to the entry fees
                                Arek Wojciechowski
                                8legs Racing, SPC #77
                                http://www.8legsRacing.com

                                Comment

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