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looking back at the 2007 CSC

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  • CobraStang
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by djphoebus View Post
    What's the reason being running group? and not mixing them if needed?
    You would then have people in the same class running is possibly different track & weather conditions, moreso that when everyone in a class is in the same run group. With the exception of co-drivers.

    If the run order was not changed, you could have a sensible dry order, which later changes to alternating fast/slow cars/drivers on the grid due to a change in track conditions. You could not run even three cars on the track, because the third car would be significantly faster than the second car, and we get perpetual yellow flags. As it was, some drivers were so much faster than the driver gridded ahead of them, that they were yellow flagged until the track was clear, then given their three hot laps. I think John P almost ended up like this.

    Now Carl, if your understanding is that people with rain tires from one run group (say X) were moved up to run with people from another run group (say Z), then I think the point is well made. Otherwise, I think a lot more competitors would have been frustrated at seeing just two cars on the track, than were frustrated by the change of grid order.

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  • shawn cormier
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by JoeT View Post
    Um.. Ok, if Bikini girls are in the pits, Dave can walk around in his bikini "speedo's" for the girls.
    Tough call.................nope can t let it happen....sorry Dave Serge wins.............your banned!

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  • ScotcH
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by thgear View Post
    i thought mosport forces on us their own marshals...
    There is more to marshal duties than just waving flags ... most people had assignments at the Nationals (timers, clerks, grid, etc.)

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  • JoeT
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by Slowpoke View Post
    Dave Pratte is going to want to reciprocate for the lady drivers...
    Um.. Ok, if Bikini girls are in the pits, Dave can walk around in his bikini "speedo's" for the girls.

    Leave a comment:


  • thgear
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by Slowpoke View Post
    Maybe if we had bikini girls in pit lane, more drivers would show up early to the grid and stay by their cars instead of wandering off?

    My only concern is that someone like ... oh I don't know... Dave Pratte is going to want to reciprocate for the lady drivers...
    simple solutions, ban dave pratte!

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  • thgear
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by ScotcH View Post
    The reason for the groups is Marshal assignments. We need people to know what group they run in so that they can marshal in the other groups. It would be great is we didn't have to marshal, but the reality is that it's a neccessary task unless we all want to add $50 to the entry fees
    i thought mosport forces on us their own marshals...

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  • Slowpoke
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by shawn cormier View Post
    I still think thing will run smoother with bikini girls
    Maybe if we had bikini girls in pit lane, more drivers would show up early to the grid and stay by their cars instead of wandering off?

    My only concern is that someone like ... oh I don't know... Dave Pratte is going to want to reciprocate for the lady drivers...

    Leave a comment:


  • STIgma
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by shawn cormier View Post
    I still think thing will run smoother with bikini girls
    +1

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  • shawn cormier
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    I still think thing will run smoother with bikini girls

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  • ScotcH
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by djphoebus View Post
    Do we really need group? From what i see, running by group only slow the event more than anything else. It happen quite often during the CSC that we had to run 4 cars or less at a time because we didn't want to mix group...This has slow down the event quite a bit...

    I think that classifying cars by their fastest time instead of class and sending the next 7 cars even if they are not in the same class/group will make the event run smoother for sure.

    What's the reason being running group? and not mixing them if needed? from other comments it seems to have run like that for quite some time in Ontario...
    The reason for the groups is Marshal assignments. We need people to know what group they run in so that they can marshal in the other groups. It would be great is we didn't have to marshal, but the reality is that it's a neccessary task unless we all want to add $50 to the entry fees

    Leave a comment:


  • djphoebus
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Do we really need group? From what i see, running by group only slow the event more than anything else. It happen quite often during the CSC that we had to run 4 cars or less at a time because we didn't want to mix group...This has slow down the event quite a bit...

    I think that classifying cars by their fastest time instead of class and sending the next 7 cars even if they are not in the same class/group will make the event run smoother for sure.

    What's the reason being running group? and not mixing them if needed? from other comments it seems to have run like that for quite some time in Ontario...

    Leave a comment:


  • jonweir
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by Slowpoke View Post
    Actually, I think it should be X Y Z on one day, then Z Y X on the other, and then viceversa for the next event. Or completely random determined at the beginning of the year. And I recall the situation that Walter did. Emails sent to the organizer from a competitor before the event certainly can't be counted as "official".

    Small detail, but SOMEONE from X will complain that they always get the colder morning sessions, and someone from Z will complain that X always gets to pack up early.
    My argument for the XYZ,XYZ or ZYX,ZYX run order is that each group's runs are separated equally by 2 runs. 2ndrun=1strun+2.
    Assuming the run order for the event is determined early enough in advance (more than 1 week) weather is completely random throughout the day. So all groups have the same probability of a change in conditions. But if one group runs back to back, there is less probability that the weather will change in such a short time.
    It happened to work out bad for X, but it could have been the other way around too. Basically X was forced to put all their eggs in one basket (the midday basket)

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  • bbqman
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by Slowpoke View Post
    First of all, I don't see anything indicated in the rules that says what order anyone should be gridded in out side of run groups. (Correct me if I'm wrong, and I've missed something.) So no rule was violated in pulling rain tire equipped cars to the front. It appears to be fully within the clerk's rights to send cars out in the order they feel best facilitates the running of the event. In our case on Saturday, the challenge was for every competitor to get a second session!

    I don't think that cars were pushed back because they weren't safe, they were pushed back because of their anticipated lap time based on the tires they had. Running slicks in a downpour can put you 15% to 20% off the times of the other cars in your class that are properly prepared. Even if as Marc suggested, they put the three rain prepped cars from the front of the group, and four cars on slicks at the back of the run group, in four laps the lead car would likely STILL catch the end of the unprepped cars and cause yellow flags and delay the event. Alternatively, the clerk would have to send out the four prepped cars for a five lap session, then the three unprepped cars, and STILL we would have a delay to the event.

    It appears to me that from the experience at the DDT in rain at Event #2, allowing cars with proper rain tires to run first facilitated the effective running of that event, and the National event on Day #1. This is not a method of cheating; there is reasonably close to equal chance that the rain will worsen as it will improve by the time the slick-equipped cars are called up to run together. (Approximately two sessions later.)

    Now, if a car at the front turned down the opportunity to run, hesitated, or wasn't in their car when they were called to run, that violates 1.8.5

    "A DNS (Did Not Start) is given if the competitor fails to leave the start position when directed to do so by the Clerk of the Course. All of the laps of that runshall be recorded as a DNS."

    I saw leniency given to at least one competitor during the national event though in this regard, but only on the Sunday. They were not at their car when they were called to the grid due to an emergency rest room break I believe after being with their car on the grid for over an hour. Call it organizers trying to be accomodating to the people who travelled far to be there.

    In a second incident, when I realized that one of my fellow competitors was going to end up missing the last run because he didn't have enough fuel and the pumps were closed early, I offered the fuel I had in the pits so that they could finish all the sessions. I think that person MIGHT have gotten to the grid late, but I don't think they missed their intended run position. Again, no protest from fellow people in the run group.

    Maybe leniency just plain shouldn't happen at Nationals. Organizers will be criticized whether they are or aren't, though.
    Stephen, you bring to light an important fact. If there is no such rule about when cars run once called to the grid, in all fairness ( when weather conditions are changing) there should be one.
    I know that in Quebec and most regions running Solo events, cars leave the grid in timed order.
    Something to think about for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slowpoke
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by John P View Post
    For the one shot National event the order should always be X Y Z so everyone has an equal chance at good and bad weather. That is fair.
    Actually, I think it should be X Y Z on one day, then Z Y X on the other, and then viceversa for the next event. Or completely random determined at the beginning of the year. And I recall the situation that Walter did. Emails sent to the organizer from a competitor before the event certainly can't be counted as "official".

    Small detail, but SOMEONE from X will complain that they always get the colder morning sessions, and someone from Z will complain that X always gets to pack up early.

    And should co-driven cars not be allowed at National events? Or forced into the same run group to stop the inevitable arguments? We typically put the co-driven car into a separate run group, but that second run group can get significantly different weather conditions than the primary driver and screw up the class. In the case of SGT2 on Saturday, that was Gerry who was 48 seconds slower than the class winner. Can you imagine the arguments if it was the other way around? With 9 competitors in the 1:40's and Gerry sitting pretty with a 1:02?

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  • dubya_rx
    replied
    Re: looking back at the 2007 CSC

    Originally posted by John P View Post
    Arek, On Saturday at lunch the organizer specifically stated at the driver's meeting that the order was changed. Also, in preliminary organizer's E mails the organizer indicated the order was going to be X Y Z for both Saturday and Sunday. Only Sunday used the X Y Z order.

    For the one shot National event the order should always be X Y Z so everyone has an equal chance at good and bad weather. That is fair.

    JohnP
    I don't believe this is correct. There was a lot of discussion about whether the run order should be changed to try to accommodate the Z group but it was decided that it would not be changed.

    The original run order XYZ ZYX is used to maximize the track time and minimize the movement of cars on and off the grid. In fair weather this works without problem. In wet weather (which of course cannot be predicted) cars will run on different track conditions but that cannot be helped. Even if the run order was XYZ XYZ there could still be a weather change within the X or Y or Z runs which cannot be predicted. Since we run rain or shine, that's what we have to live with.

    Also, since propositioning is turned off during wet weather, you do not need to worry if another run group ran on a track drier or wetter than you did.

    Overall, I think it was a very difficult day for the organizers, and they did as best a job as could be expected.

    Leave a comment:

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