Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

[ADAM]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

"you put together a very nice car this season, lots of torque, you tried to go out and prove how light chasis + lots of torque is a good thing, but didnt, so what does that tell the rest of us?"

it tells me my mid 12 sec 1/4 car was getting run down in the straights by 4 cylinder cars


plus the cars handling is not optimized yet nor its brakes..nor its driver

ahhh next season ..always next season

[Tashko]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

it tells me my mid 12 sec 1/4 car was getting run down in the straights by 4 cylinder cars

hmm, slow shifting?

What happened with all the G2X data? It would be interesting to see the drag races down the Fabi straight vs PIPs and dyno plots...

As Serge said, I don't think anybody is saying that 2litre turbos can't make big power. However, this is a grass-roots sport where supposedly a person can take their street car and have some fun competition. This is what dyno plots do for the sport when not abused.

The choice shouldn't be between buy an NA car to compete or make your turbo car a trailer-queen to compete...out of curiosity, why did you give up on the turbo car Adam?

Hopefully we will see dyno-plots continue, with some new factors, and more strict acceptance criteria rather than carte blanche. Coming up with the criteria would be the difficult part!

It's a thankless job being on a volunteer committee.

What is the driving force behind requiring roll-over protection if a car moves up 5 classes anyway? Shouldn't it be based on a lap time around a specific track? If you mod the crap out of a slow car, it'll be a faster slow car but need a roll-bar.

[ADAM]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

"What happened with all the G2X data? It would be interesting to see the drag races down the Fabi straight vs PIPs and dyno plots..."

krispy post some up..we have good data from calabogie on the straight..i think in the dry?


"The choice shouldn't be between buy an NA car to compete or make your turbo car a trailer-queen to compete...out of curiosity, why did you give up on the turbo car Adam?"

was tired of busted parts and fires... so traded the turbo in for less power and more reliability..the V8 is a reliable engine at its given power level...

[thgear]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

"What happened with all the G2X data? It would be interesting to see the drag races down the Fabi straight vs PIPs and dyno plots..."

krispy post some up..we have good data from calabogie on the straight..i think in the dry?


"The choice shouldn't be between buy an NA car to compete or make your turbo car a trailer-queen to compete...out of curiosity, why did you give up on the turbo car Adam?"

was tired of busted parts and fires... so traded the turbo in for less power and more reliability..the V8 is a reliable engine at its given power level...

so, adam

you , with a fully operational shop, a little bit more disposable income than the rest of us, got tired of your engines bursting into flames,

and just because you were able to beat the system given your resources, you expect someone else to do the same, AND surpass your workmanship and actually survive atleast 6 events?

[JoeT]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

was tired of busted parts and fires... so traded the turbo in for less power and more reliability..the V8 is a reliable engine at its given power level...

By that statement, I'm guessing you're car is not optimized, but should be PIP'd accordingly, since that type of V8 is capable of over 600 HP.

Now is that comment fair?

[ADAM]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

"you , with a fully operational shop, a little bit more disposable income than the rest of us, got tired of your engines bursting into flames,

and just because you were able to beat the system given your resources, you expect someone else to do the same, AND surpass your workmanship and actually survive atleast 6 events?"

ummm I did try for 6 years and actually won in 2002 in CSP class...

I am not a mechanic and this was before easy modern fuel spark control was available for that engine in turbo form..and yet was able to easily beat the pip system before it was upped and changed..


yes after 6 years I got fed up.. the engine was finally working then I started shearing transmisions in high boost..no simple solutions to that..other than reducing boost...so time to use a real motor and transmission out of the box

[ADAM]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

"By that statement, I'm guessing you're car is not optimized, but should be PIP'd accordingly, since that type of V8 is capable of over 600 HP.

Now is that comment fair?"

its fair if the following were true....

I added heaps of parts to the stock engine then claimed they dont make power..take it to a dyno that is underated using our conversion factors..used that dyno to show that these parts dont make power..and then beat cars not using dyno plots and just the pip values of the parts they added..

I think that about sums up the reality...no?


I am using a bone stock Ls1 from the factory..paying pips for non optimized custom headers that I needed to do the swap, and using a non optimized exhaust system..

can a Ls1 make more power ..yes ..if you change the parts....or if I did it your way..maybe those parts would make less power after I added them to my car..as long as I have a dyno plot to show that

[JoeT]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

I am using a bone stock Ls1 from the factory..paying pips for non optimized custom headers that I needed to do the swap, and using a non optimized exhaust system..

can a Ls1 make more power ..yes ..if you change the parts....or if I did it your way..maybe those parts would make less power after I added them to my car..as long as I have a dyno plot to show that

Hoy many pips did you claim for the exhaust and headers, regardless if it's optimized or not? All I can see from your post is you claim that they don't make power. You do claim that it's not optimized, but that's irrelivant using your arguement.

[Cap'n Pete]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

Hoy many pips did you claim for the exhaust and headers, regardless if it's optimized or not? All I can see from your post is you claim that they don't make power.

He said it right here:

paying pips for non optimized custom headers that I needed to do the swap

So he should be paying the same 2 ePIPs that I'm claiming on my 2002 Camaro (and modified/removed Y-pipe/cats = 1 PIP) so I'm assuming he should be claiming 3 ePIPs in total in that area.

And why should a STOCK engine be over-PIP'd because it could make ~600 HP if MODIFIED?!?!?! That makes NO sense. If Adam or I changed the intake, heads, cam on our LS1's ... well, I guess so (it is "possible" to make ~600 HP). But if we changed intake, heads and cam, and dyno'd the same as stock??? I'd be looking for a major refund!!!

What about running a supercharger? They're quite popular for V8's. Is it fair to assume that a person is running a BIG pulley (= low boost) so don't PIP them as much as if they had a SMALL pulley (= big boost)?? Why bother installing the blower then, if you're not going to make worthwhile boost from it???

[craig]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

Can you point out which ones don't run the series? I believe that everyone in the OSO (these are the people that decide), actually run the series?

Or were you referring to the CCC

Hummm... I believe they do run the series as well.

Care to share?

I have never run the series and am on the OSO. I only run the odd event. Then again, I don't remember seeing the e-mail, either.

Arek no longer runs the series and is on the CCC.
---
Not addressed at just Joe, but to everyone:

Almost anyone who proposes something that is beneficial to them will present a biased justification/results/whatever, even if they swear that they are not doing so - and they usually aren't deliberately doing it. But that doesn't change the reality that they usually are presenting a one-sided arguement (the usual bias comes from the error of omission). This should be expected of competitors. In fact, one could almost say that the definition of a veteran competitor is somebody who doesn't get self-righteous upon reading the prior statements.

If someone agrees with and supports ideas that increase fairness even though those ideas are detrimental to their own setup - well, those are the kinds of veteran competitors that should be on the CCC.

[JoeT]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

He said it right here:

And why should a STOCK engine be over-PIP'd because it could make ~600 HP if MODIFIED?!?!?! That makes NO sense. If Adam or I changed the intake, heads, cam on our LS1's ... well, I guess so (it is "possible" to make ~600 HP). But if we changed intake, heads and cam, and dyno'd the same as stock??? I'd be looking for a major refund!!!

Hey Pete,

All good points, and what you brought up is exactly our points as well. Someone who will remain nameless, that if you're going to modify something, it's with the intent of "optimizing for racing".

I believe Adam just pointed out the fact that not all mods "free" up power, and the proof is in what was done to his car.

Similarly on a Forced Induction car, if you change the up pipe, downpipe and exhaust without changing the turbo, we agree that there will be mild gains, but not to the point that Adam is claiming it should be, sometimes it will even result in a loss.

No arguement from me there.. and NO I'm not TFB LOL

Off topic: Take a look at TFB's profile, you'll be surprised at how many posts he started (only 1), and what type of posts he participates in... I believe Steve Moore called 2winscrews a troll.. But I think we have an even bigger one..

[JoeT]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

If someone agrees with and supports ideas that increase fairness even though those ideas are detrimental to their own setup - well, those are the kinds of veteran competitors that should be on the CCC.

Word of a wise man... Thank you...

When contributing to the rules in "autoslalom" I think you should ask Gary Woods with regards to a character reference about yours truly. In many of our conversations, there were recommendations made my me, that would really hurt me in my current class. Not standing on a pedestal, but people are quick to judge before understanding the whole story.

Similarly when you and I were sitting in the Autoslalom meeting, the recommendation of "Shared Risk" was not about my club, rather it was made for other clubs benefits.

Craig - Our next president!! (I'd vote for you).

[thgear]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

Hey Pete,

All good points, and what you brought up is exactly our points as well. Someone who will remain nameless, that if you're going to modify something, it's with the intent of "optimizing for racing".

well if everyone agreed on that we wouldnt be sitting here discussing this

obviously the TRUTH of the matter is that very few of us are optimizing, and those that are not optimising are running and busting down dynographs, 23 competitors!

and thats just the engine side,


with the exception of Luca and James, no one is optimising aero,

suspension wise, how many competitors are running 100% sphearical bearings and ohlins?

[craig]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

Craig - Our next president!! (I'd vote for you).

I'm not even a member of SPDA and you want me to be president?

[JoeT]

Re: Topics for meeting, Nov 22 at 1:30

I'm not even a member of SPDA and you want me to be president?

Certainly.. But for you, we'll grant you a lifetime membership.. Now how's that for stirring up the pot?