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  • #76
    Re: brake pad choice..

    Originally posted by haikara2308 View Post
    Is that the same feeling as when the abs kicks in during the winter and the car just slides forward? And the brake pedal just gets rock hard when you lift your foot off the brakes when it happens.
    Yes, that is basically it.
    Corey Whiteman

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    • #77
      Re: brake pad choice..

      Originally posted by 3wheeler View Post

      Also not necessarily true. Some drivers prefer to use the ABS to ensure they are maximizing their braking ability, and some cars are more intrusive than others. If said driver can use this technique to his advantage on a very consistent basis, it is not considered a mistake. Now, if he misses the apex because he braked a little too late, that's a mistake, but that can also happen in ABS or non-ABS. However, if that same driver is forced to drive a non-ABS car, he may find it very difficult to adapt as he has always relied on the pulsation of the pedal to determine threshold braking - this habit can be costly!
      Just wondering is relying on the ABS in this way a good technique and is it indeed faster than braking but not getting into the ABS going into the corner? At the OTA school for the corner before the triple apex, I was told to brake till I felt the ABS but I'm unsure if this is indeed necessary and is it really faster.
      "Racing makes Heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty." -- Peter Egan
      sigpic

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      • #78
        Re: brake pad choice..

        Originally posted by haikara2308 View Post
        Just wondering is relying on the ABS in this way a good technique and is it indeed faster than braking but not getting into the ABS going into the corner? At the OTA school for the corner before the triple apex, I was told to brake till I felt the ABS but I'm unsure if this is indeed necessary and is it really faster.
        That's a really loaded question that doesn't really have an answer to be honest.

        Lets put it this way, anytime you need to threshold brake, you can either brake to the point at which the ABS is about to kick in(which depending on your ability, may be 95-100% braking force), or activate ABS(100% braking force regardless of skill). Using ABS gives you the most possible braking force without lock up but it can be intrusive on some cars making it a little unsettled during corner entry. Ultimately, the goal of a good ABS system is to have the car brake at 100% without the car being unsettled and to allow the driver the ability to focus all their attention on placing the car where it needs to be.

        Now, if we are talking about proper motorsports systems, ABS would not necessarily be faster, but it would be MUCH harder to match its performance if the car did not have one. That would require the driver to be perfect every, single, time - much like a computer. So, what it really comes down to is consistency, and removing some of the pressure)no pun intended ) off the driver, making their job easier.
        Corey Whiteman

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        • #79
          Re: brake pad choice..

          Originally posted by 3wheeler View Post
          I have to clear up a couple things...
          Thanks for scrutinizing and schooling Corey! Good to have some more knowledge on the situation. I'm sure every car is quite different also, so I apologize for perhaps making it sound like all ABS is unsafe, because certainly in most cases the opposite is true. I've personally never experienced ABS issues anywhere except Autox. The system on my car simple doesn't respond to a lift in brake pedal application (once ABS is engaging) fast enough. Leaving me forced to either hold the pedal or have no brakes for much too long a period.

          I had ABS blip on me right before turn in at the track once but that was no big deal since I was letting off brake to turn anyways. It was a nice warning/learning tool of the tires limits.

          I suppose there are a lot of circumstances to consider where ABS is concerned. And every car being different. For me, I'll never likely have it on again, it's too unpredictable in my car
          Infiniti G35 Sedan ~ OTA #87
          AutoSlalom #87

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          • #80
            Re: brake pad choice..

            Originally posted by Tunermax View Post
            Thanks for scrutinizing and schooling Corey! Good to have some more knowledge on the situation. I'm sure every car is quite different also, so I apologize for perhaps making it sound like all ABS is unsafe, because certainly in most cases the opposite is true. I've personally never experienced ABS issues anywhere except Autox. The system on my car simple doesn't respond to a lift in brake pedal application (once ABS is engaging) fast enough. Leaving me forced to either hold the pedal or have no brakes for much too long a period.

            I had ABS blip on me right before turn in at the track once but that was no big deal since I was letting off brake to turn anyways. It was a nice warning/learning tool of the tires limits.

            I suppose there are a lot of circumstances to consider where ABS is concerned. And every car being different. For me, I'll never likely have it on again, it's too unpredictable in my car

            We all still have allot to learn, myself included!
            Corey Whiteman

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            • #81
              Re: brake pad choice..

              I think the moral here is that the limitations of the stock ABS system are very different across different cars/platforms.

              Matt, I'll take you for a ride in my car with more aggressive pads and much stickier tires than stock and show you that ABS can work as designed with no scary downsides. FWIW, there is also a big difference between our cars, both physically and the target demographic, so that's a giant factor as well.

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              • #82
                Re: brake pad choice..

                The issue is that ABS is set up but the manufacturer to maximise braking under certain conditions often low traction conditions such as wet or snow covered roadway. Also different manufacturers set up their cars brake proportioning to be different, I know GM cars tend to be rear biased i.e the rears usually lock up (and trigger ABS) first.

                Changing brake pads, tires, suspension etc is not what the OEM ordered.

                I know in my Camaros, particularly the 2002 model, the rear bias was so bad that I would run full race pads up front and stock pads in the rear and given any good tire, the wgt transfer to the front would still allow rear lock up way too easily thereby triggering the dreaded axle hop. No it didn't get much better even when the rear pads were hot. The only solution I found worked was to put in a mechanical proportioning valve downstream of the ABS box to dial out even more rear brake. Fortunately it worked very well, just took me a few seasons to work it out.

                I know that just stomping on the brakes at every corner, triggering the ABS unit, at least in my cars, leads to a rapid fatigue of the system which usually goes into the equivalent of "limp mode" or turns off the ABS altogether. I remember being at TMP and wondering who was leaving all that rubber on the road until I realised it was me after a total ABS failure.

                BTW I have experienced " Ice Mode" and it is really scary. Apparently it needs a few criteria to trigger, one of which I think is locking of both front and rear wheels at the same time. (Yet not sure how the old adage of " two feet in " in an emergency stop works here)
                Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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                • #83
                  Re: brake pad choice..

                  Glad someone mentioned "two feet in . . . "

                  That's my issue with ABS, sometimes when you get in trouble you just want to be able to lock the brakes and skid in a straight line, doesn't seem to be possible with ABS On though, happened to me a few times at TMP last year, would've been nice to keep it off of the grass . . .

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                  • #84
                    Re: brake pad choice..

                    Originally posted by wmija View Post
                    Glad someone mentioned "two feet in . . . "

                    That's my issue with ABS, sometimes when you get in trouble you just want to be able to lock the brakes and skid in a straight line, doesn't seem to be possible with ABS On though, happened to me a few times at TMP last year, would've been nice to keep it off of the grass . . .
                    Locking up increases stopping distance and will not allow you to steer(if needed) , so I am not sure why you would want to do that.. If all hope of saving the car is lost, both feet in is best, but that isn't limited to non-abs cars.
                    Corey Whiteman

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                    • #85
                      Re: brake pad choice..

                      Original plan was to run DTC30's all around, all the time, but those things squeal louder than a pig orgasm.

                      Sticking OEM's in the front and living with the little noise the rear DTC's make, changing the front at track.

                      My test'n'tune at TMP also shows the DTC30's like to turn RS3's into octagons.
                      Barry

                      Citizen Cone Dodger

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                      • #86
                        Re: brake pad choice..

                        Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post
                        Original plan was to run DTC30's all around, all the time, but those things squeal louder than a pig orgasm.
                        Infiniti G35 Sedan ~ OTA #87
                        AutoSlalom #87

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                        • #87
                          Re: brake pad choice..

                          Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post
                          Original plan was to run DTC30's all around, all the time, but those things squeal louder than a pig orgasm.
                          So you're off sheep now? What prompted the switch?
                          sigpic

                          Stephen, SPDA VP, OTA Director, CCC Member
                          OTA: SGT1 ! -=- CSCS: SSA #842

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                          • #88
                            Re: brake pad choice..

                            The DTC30s in the back of the vette got quiet eventually. Unbelievable squeak when they were fresh though.
                            03 Z06 #72
                            15 Prius V

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                            • #89
                              Re: brake pad choice..

                              I am of the opinion that if your ABS is kicking in you are braking too hard and have surpassed the point of "threshold" braking. It was interesting having the Integra out at the school in the wet, I pushed the envelope going into the braking zone at the bottom of the hill and had my ABS engage in a medium to light fashion but it was enough to upset my double heel toe downshift I had to make. This was an obvious disadvantage and made me slower, when I broke correctly there were no issues. I have noticed in multiple FWD cars that under hard braking zones where I require the use of trail braking I will get a very slight jitter in the pedal as a result of the rear inside wheel lifting but by this point I am already releaving pressure and going back to throttle.

                              The only time I will accept that same slight jitter in the brake pedal I mentioned earlier is when in a very bumpy braking zone, TMP and SMP come to mind. If ABS kicks in not in those two situations in any way I know I have made a mistake as a driver.

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                              • #90
                                Re: brake pad choice..

                                Originally posted by KLZEMX6 View Post
                                you run rs3's, why would you swap tires at the track?

                                You will never get any measurable wear driving to and from the track on a tire like that

                                even if you were on rcomps I would drive to and from the track,
                                After a run to/from mosport and halfway to shannonville this is what my street tires look like on the front.
                                Tell me again how silly i am for not driving the RS3's to and from events lol!
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                                Infiniti G35 Sedan ~ OTA #87
                                AutoSlalom #87

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