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  • #16
    Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

    Sadly it is not a question of being legal or not. Facility is there to ensure that everyone can be insured. If you read the fine print of your insurance policy you will find that if you change the risk factors of your car/driving then the insurance company can cancel your insurance. Modifying your car and not notifying your insurance company is considered grounds for canceling and getting kicked to facility. Running your car at timed events is considered grounds for canceling your policy as well. Lapping a car may or may not.

    The sad truth is that under the current direction that the insurance companies are going, dedicated track cars are becoming necessary. Facility has to cover you by law. You may not like the prices you pay. When you go to apply for insurance, notice that there is a question about whether you have had an insurance policy canceled. This is the big red flag for the insurance company.

    We had a hell of a time insuring the car we took to Targa Newfoundland this year, even though last year it was not a big issue. Targa cars need to be street plated and insured to run.

    Before everyone jumps down my throat, talk with your insurance company first and see how they stand on it.

    Bruce

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    • #17
      Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

      Originally posted by thgear View Post
      you are covered at the track for liability

      you are not covered at the track for car damage


      if you are worried about your insurance company walking out on you in the event that you hit someone on the street based on the fact that at some point in the past you drove at a race track... well, is that even legal?
      As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), but if you hit or injure someone at the track with your car (spectator, etc), that person could chase your insurance company for injury compensation, even though you're not driving on a public highway.

      Solo II competitors are facing the same delima

      Regarding modifications (I've mentioned this before), TD Meloche flat out refused to insure my car if it had any modifications, including the cheesy home made cold air intake that came with it. I had to take it to a local auto body shop, where photos were taken of the car and any modifications were noted and submited to TD Meloche. Thankfully I found a $10 stock air box in time...
      "Asking the front wheels of a car to do <more than> their normal job of steering ... is like asking a man to wire a plug while juggling. Penguins. While making love. To a beautiful woman, while on fire, on stage, in front of the Queen. It's all going to go wrong." - J.C.

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      • #18
        Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

        Originally posted by thgear View Post
        if you are worried about your insurance company walking out on you in the event that you hit someone on the street based on the fact that at some point in the past you drove at a race track... well, is that even legal?
        In that situation the insurance company can claim you are in breach of contract (if the policy restricts racing and timed events), and again you have potential legal liability.

        Just looked through the OHIP subrogation rules and they have the right to claim certain expenses from the risk's insurance company, whether that is ASN's writer or your own. If the writer claims breach of contract, then it's the same situation again.

        The ASN waiver only applies to those that sign it. I'm not sure if every spectator at a track like DDT, or other tracks, has to sign the same waiver. Also note that in Canada, liability waivers are not bullet-proof. Some can be successfully defended, others not so.

        I know....I'm getting into the nitty-gritty here and probably boring everyone to tears.

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        • #19
          Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

          Originally posted by Burnsey View Post
          Solo II competitors are facing the same delima
          I think Solo II might be even worse, as I think you are required to show proof of insurance, no? How do you have insurance on a car modified for Solo II competition, when your insurance company restricts modifications?

          If people at the event know that they are in breach of contract as a result of modifying their dual-purpose vehicles, are they deliberately breaking the (contract) law? There's a clause in the ASN policy that states coverage is excluded in this situation.

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          • #20
            Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

            "liability waivers are not bullet-proof"

            Liability waivers mean nothing if there is negligence
            Former CCC member, and shit disturber

            winner of a bunch of different classes over many years

            breaker of parts, burner of engines

            CREATOR OF "ULTIMATE DOOM 570SX"

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            • #21
              Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

              The Police don't have to report mods........ We'd have no time for Starbucks if we were doin' that!!!!
              sigpic

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              • #22
                Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                Wow Chris, Starbucks? I always thought it was Timmies
                sigpic

                http://www.can-alignment.com http://trackmart.com

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                • #23
                  Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                  Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                  In that situation the insurance company can claim you are in breach of contract (if the policy restricts racing and timed events), and again you have potential legal liability.
                  At the track, ASN Insurance covers you for liability...

                  Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                  The ASN waiver only applies to those that sign it. I'm not sure if every spectator at a track like DDT, or other tracks, has to sign the same waiver.
                  Everyone on site needs to sign the waiver. For their benefit and the organizers.

                  Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                  I think Solo II might be even worse, as I think you are required to show proof of insurance, no? How do you have insurance on a car modified for Solo II competition, when your insurance company restricts modifications?
                  No. And many cars in Solo2 are not modified. And not all insurance companies restricts modifications. And what is restricted varies from one company to another.

                  Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                  If people at the event know that they are in breach of contract as a result of modifying their dual-purpose vehicles, are they deliberately breaking the (contract) law? There's a clause in the ASN policy that states coverage is excluded in this situation.
                  Breaking the law and breaching the contract with your insurance company, consequences aside, are not the same thing. You don't need to have personal insurance while at the track while you are covered by the organizers insurance (for a CASC-OR event, be it Time Trials or Autocross).

                  ***edit: The "situation" you speak of is not specified in the insurance policy summary. It ony states that you may be excluded from ASN Liability insurance if you are found breaking the law.

                  There seem to be alot of misconceptions in this thread, and it's much appreciated that we have a doctor and police officer clarifying some of them. It might be of benefit to come out to spectate at one of our events to see how we handle things from a liability and safety standpoint. ...Don't forget to sign the waiver.

                  Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                  It's not the property damage that I'm worried about - my car is not worth that much and I know ASN provides a good policy at the track....I'm more concerned about legal liability if my insurance company deems that I am in breach of contract and they come after me for a personal injury claim.
                  Johnny, you mentioned that you may have experiencing lapping? It is probable that the minimum insurance that some lapping organizers have is much less than the liability insurance that ASN covers and you are taking more risk attending those events than ours in the rare event that you may need to submit a personal injury claim. This assumes that your personal insurance does not apply anytime you are at a race track or competition event.
                  Last edited by bsclywilly; 12-23-2010, 12:40 AM. Reason: see edit note above

                  Will Chan

                  Former OTA CCC Chairman

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                  • #24
                    Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                    Originally posted by Parker View Post
                    While we're on the subject, has anyone here in Ontario even been "caught" racing their car on a track and had their policy cancelled?
                    THAT is a really good question. I know of at least one person who's insurance was cancelled for "modifications" - but - despite all the rumours and whispers - I have never heard confirmation of anyone's policy being cancelled for participating in Sanctioned/Non-Racing (not wheel to wheel) activities.

                    QUESTION - Has anyone in CASC-OR ever actually had their insurance cancelled for competing?

                    Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                    I just got off the phone with my broker, and they have experienced that in their own office, as well as a friend of one of the rep's husband, so I know it happens.
                    This I hear often. "A friend of a friend" - or - "my broker told me" - or - "I read in another forum" - but as I asked above, does anyone have personal experience that their insurance was cancelled. We have several hundred active competitors in CASC-OR - if this is really happening, then someone must have had their insurance cancelled.

                    The closest I know of - are cases where insurance was cancelled, but the person had recent accident(s) or excessive tickets - and "thought" the cancellation may "also" have been related to their track activities.

                    Originally posted by Parker View Post
                    In the latter case, there was a person hired by an insurance company at the track taking down plate numbers and VINs.
                    A very common rumour, but I honestly write it off as folklore. Reports of the "mystery plate taker" are common at various events - but I've never been able to find them. (yes - as a former CASC-OR VP - I've gone looking). Usually, I was told that he just left - or was here last event but not today, etc. etc.

                    If in doubt - it's always best to play it safe - but I would really like to know the facts about what is (or is not) going on.
                    Last edited by Bubblecar; 12-28-2010, 08:39 AM.
                    ===================
                    M NICK MAJORS
                    Race Director - CASC-OR

                    - 2010 CASC-OR Formula Libre Roadrace Champion (Elan DP02 sportsracer)
                    - 2006/2007/2008 - 3 time CASC-OR GT1 Roadrace Champion (Viper Competition Coupe)
                    - 2008 Mobil1 RaceOntario OVERALL Roadrace Champion ("Darth Viper")
                    - 2007 Ice Racing OVERALL and RWD Stud Class Champion (turbo-charged 240sx)

                    (Executive Director - RACE DRIVERS' GUILD of CANADA - )

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                    • #25
                      Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                      Here is my experience back in 2004 with atttempting to insure a car used for solo 1 / solo 2 and driven to events. The car had some modifications at that time....suspension & roll bar.

                      I called 20 seperate individuals in the Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge area, was upfront with them as to what the vehicle was to be used for and directed them to the CASC website to review the rules and sanctioning under FIA/ASN. I asked them to all provide a quote and if they could not, to then provide a letter stating the reasons for refusal. Absolutely no one would provide insurance through regular underwriters due to what the vehicle was used for and the modifications.

                      Only two of the companies would provide their refusal in writing. Other verbal responses were...we cannot provide the details in writing because we have no time for non-paying customers, we reserve the use of facility for current customers only and cannot underwrite new policies, we are not offerring any new automobile policies, we will not cover the vehicle in either case of solo use or modifications.

                      I did find two insurance brokers that would provide facility insurance for the vehicle. This required an appraisal of the vehicle documenting the modification etc. As I understood the law at that time, you cannot be refused insurance in Ontario, however you may be only insurable under facility and expect to pay a huge amount of money as a result. Refer to www.fsco.ca for details.

                      My experience was that if you are upfront with the company don't expect to get coverage. What did I do? Paid a lot for facilty insurance for 2 seasons then bought a truck and trailer!

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                      • #26
                        Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                        John Bondar looked into the insurance issue when he was president of CASC-OR. If I remember correctly EVERY person that had insurance cancelled had underlying issues that led to the cancellation of their insurance and had nothing to do with competing in any sanctioned event.

                        Originally posted by Bubblecar View Post
                        THAT is a really good question. I know of at least one person who's insurance was cancelled for "modifications" - but - despite all the rumours and whispers - I have never heard confirmation of anyone's policy being cancelled for participating in Sanctioned/Non-Racing (not wheel to wheel) activities.

                        QUESTION - Has anyone in CASC-OR ever actually had their insurance cancelled for competing?



                        This I hear often. "A friend of a friend" - or - "my broker told me" - or - "I read in another forum" - but as I asked above, does anyone have personal experience that their insurance was cancelled. We have several hundred active competitors in CASC-OR - if this is really happening, then someone must have had their insurance cancelled.

                        The closest I know of - are cases where insurance was cancelled, but the person had recent accident(s) or excessive tickets - and "thought" the cancellation may "also" have been related to their track activities.


                        A very common rumour, but I honestly write it off as folklore. Reports of the "mystery plate taker" are common at various events - but I've never been able to find them. (yes - as a former CASC-OR VP - I've gone looking). Usually, I was told that he just left - or was here last event but not today, etc. etc.

                        Aside from my roadracing activities - I've tracked fully licensed and insured "high profile" cars (including my R8) for over 13 years at various HPDS, lapping days and solosport events. I've never covered my license plate or used just my first name. I've had pictures and stories in the the paper, including the Star, Globe and Inside Track.

                        If in doubt - it's always best to play it safe - but I would really like to know the facts about what is (or is not) going on.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                          Originally posted by Bubblecar View Post
                          THAT is a really good question. I know of at least one person who's insurance was cancelled for "modifications" - but - despite all the rumours and whispers - I have never heard confirmation of anyone's policy being cancelled for participating in Sanctioned/Non-Racing (not wheel to wheel) activities.

                          QUESTION - Has anyone in CASC-OR ever actually had their insurance cancelled for competing?
                          I'm curious as well. I've also heard rumors of "spies" recording plate numbers. But if this is actually something insurance companies are doing and have the right to cancel your insurance for, then there must be people on this forum who have experienced this.

                          I wonder what policies state with regards to insurance exclusions. It is stated, in one form or another, that insurance is excluded while you are participating in speed events or while you are at a facililty that holds those types of events. But cancelling your insurance for participating in these events is a completely different thing.

                          Does it make sense for insurance companies to think you are a greater risk for attending performance driving schools? Or that people who race cars tend to get in more accidents? I would think not for the former, but the latter could be argued, I guess.

                          Will Chan

                          Former OTA CCC Chairman

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                          • #28
                            Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                            Insurance companies should use the CCDB to calculate insurance costs.

                            I've never taken off my plates for competition. I felt as though I was taking a risk and the only reason to take it off would be if I did crash, and then proceeded to lie to the insurance company on how a deer hit my car without any blood stains.
                            2010 to 2013 OTA competitor with a Honda, Ford, and a BMW.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                              Originally posted by bsclywilly View Post
                              I wonder what policies state with regards to insurance exclusions. It is stated, in one form or another, that insurance is excluded while you are participating in speed events or while you are at a facililty that holds those types of events. But cancelling your insurance for participating in these events is a completely different thing.

                              Does it make sense for insurance companies to think you are a greater risk for attending performance driving schools? Or that people who race cars tend to get in more accidents? I would think not for the former, but the latter could be argued, I guess.
                              It seems they are getting stricter, and probably realize people will do it anyways even if they say they won't. It's easier for them to just cancel the policy or at least not renew it. We're seeing this in the RHD community...just over the last year the number of cancellations and refusals is increasing exponentially. Facility is pretty much our only recourse at this point.

                              It's all about risk and actuarial tables, as discussed in a similar thread on this forum. You own a performance car, make performance modifications, or do HPDEs/lapping/racing, the number crunchers see high claim frequency and value. It's bizarre the level of detail that goes into those tables and the statistics they use - a single/divorced person has a higher risk than a married person, a lawyer is a higher risk than a scientist, lower credit score is a higher risk, etc.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                                the underlying reason for canceling your policy is silly though.

                                Everyone knows that by crashing their car at a race track they will pay out of pocket, and it would be silly to try and scam the insurance companies for this sort of thing. (although some have)

                                but to cancel your insurance? What do they gain?

                                what do they LOSE by having you insured and have you crash if they can just deny coverage?

                                seems counter productive
                                set tire pressures to winning!

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