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  • Insurance...sorry to bring it up

    I'm sure that I'm not the only person who doesn't want to hear or deal with this elephant in the room, but I really need to make a decision whether I enter Solosprint/time attack this year. I was hoping to do it last year, but I couldn't get the car ready in time, and did some navigating on TSD rallies instead.

    I'm unfortunately have two issues to deal with: my car is RHD, which means I'm pretty much stuck with RSA Facility, and I want to use it as a dual-purpose car. (before anyone rolls their eyes, I'm a 40yr-old with a perfect driving record, car builder/restorer, and not some speedracerboy)

    Realistically, do I have any recourse regarding the second issue, other than hoping my insurance company doesn't find out it's being time trialed? Or are we limited to owning track-only cars? If so, I'm out....I can't afford and have no space for a third vehicle+trailer, etc.

    The only possibility I see is to limit my track time to open lapping events, as these are not timed (though, it's likely that the insurance companies would revoke my insurance for that, too).

    In the latest TAC newsletter there was a lot of discussion about declining membership, especially in the area of Solo I/Solospring racing. I think this is a major factor that prevents new members from getting involved. I really think we need some alternatives available to everyone. Ideas such as a new insurance company offering useable options (Lant/Wayfarer used to allow it under their Custom plan, but Aviva, their underwriter, has now restricted their policies), shared ownership of track-only cars, rent-a-racer programs (I know some places like Mantis do this, but they're pretty expensive). There's got to be other options out there!

    Sorry for the long-winded rant...I just find this so depressing. I was really looking forward to getting out this year.

  • #2
    Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

    Most who are concerned about their insurance remove their plates and perhaps cover their VINS while they're at the track making it hard for any insurance company to come up with any proof of you taking it to the track.

    If something were to happen to you on track, you wouldn't attempt to claim it through insurance (mainly because you'd be admitting to tracking it and they probably wouldn't cover you anyway).
    -=Brian=-

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

      Originally posted by thekid View Post
      If something were to happen to you on track, you wouldn't attempt to claim it through insurance (mainly because you'd be admitting to tracking it and they probably wouldn't cover you anyway).
      True...most racers would not submit a claim, however what I'm hearing is if I, or someone else, gets hurt and OHIP gets involved, then OHIP ends up going to the the driver's insurance company to pay the bill. Insurance company says no way, driver isn't covered for that activity, and then things get really messy (and $$$).

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

        Interesting, is that really the case? OHIP goes after the insurance company? Obviously if the person above and beyond sues you in a traffic accident, then thats what liability can cover (assuming it covers enough!), but I didn't realize that simple medical bills were assumed by the at fault driver's insurance? How does that work in racing?


        Also, without actually reading my policy, does it state I am uninsured on a track? Even liability?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

          track insurance covers incidentals, no?
          set tire pressures to winning!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

            Part of the benefit of running in our series is that we have insurance coverage above the minimum that other series run since we are affiliated with ASN-FIA.

            I'm not well versed in what the coverage means, but my understanding is that we have public liability insurance. Someone else may fill you in on the details to give you a better understanding.

            More info can be found here under the insurance link: http://www.asncanada.com/

            To give you more assurance, the majority of our competitors do compete with licensed and registered vehicles that they drive to and from the track.

            *edit:
            Our rule book explains this:
            2.10 INSURANCE andWAIVERS
            .1 SoloSprint Event insurance is provided under the under the ASN Canada FIA
            insurance plan. All SoloSprint events organized by a CASC-OR club shall be
            covered by this minimum level of insurance.
            And The Summary of the ASN Canada Insurance coverage is found here:
            http://www.asncanada.com/2009_Insura...ce_Booklet.pdf
            Last edited by bsclywilly; 12-21-2010, 05:05 PM.

            Will Chan

            Former OTA CCC Chairman

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

              Insurance is a difficult topic. Here is what I understand, although I am neither a lawyer nor do I work in the insurance industry. The reason insurance companies will refuse to insure or cancel the policy of a street driven vehicle that is used for competition is as follows:

              First of all, virtually everyone's policy contains words to the effect that if you drive drunk, your insurance is void. There will be similar words that void your coverage if you use your vehicle in motorsports competition. What that means is if you damage your vehicle while driving drunk or competing, you have no insurance, and your losses will not be covered. So, there's no property damage coverage.

              However, Ontario law prohibits insurance companies from denying personal injury coverage to third parties who are injured by a drunk driver, even though driving drunk voided the policy. What does that have to do with motorsport? Well, because motorsport activity isn't excluded from the way the Ontario law requiring the insurers to pay claims against the drunk's insurance policy is worded, it also means the insurance company also can't deny coverage to anyone who might be injured by your car during a motorsport event. And, the insurers don't want to be exposed to the possibility of personal injury claims from people who might be hurt by an insured vehicle. So, it's not the property damage claims they want to avoid, they can deny coverage for those. But, the law forces them to cover personal injury claims. And, of course, if you look at insurer's claims costs, property damage costs are small in relation to the amounts paid out for personal injury.

              So, in the event that you get injured by an insured street car, even if you've signed the waiver indicating you understand the risks and agree you won't sue, you have a good chance of being covered for your injury under the street cars' policy. If you get injured by an uninsured race car, you have a problem, because there is no policy to claim against, and the real purpose of the event insurance is to defend the organizers against claims made by injured persons. There's no law that forces coverage for your injury.
              Gary

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                I believe the insurance from ASN-FIA includes participant to particpant insurance and liability insurance along with personal injury insurance.

                Peter Austin
                Montreal

                p.s. thats what we pay for. Max death and disabilty used to be $10k at races.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                  Personal injuries are covered by our ASN insurance. That is one thing that makes our insurance different from ordinary track insurance.

                  Property damage to your vehicle is not covered by either our insurance or your own insurance. It is a risk that we have all taken or continue to take.
                  Chuck Atkins

                  Ontario 1500 Motorsport Adventure Organizer
                  Former CASC-OR Ontario Time Attack Director
                  Former ASN Canada FIA SoloSport Ontario Rep

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                    Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                    I'm sure that I'm not the only person who doesn't want to hear or deal with this elephant in the room, but I really need to make a decision whether I enter Solosprint/time attack this year. I was hoping to do it last year, but I couldn't get the car ready in time, and did some navigating on TSD rallies instead.

                    I'm unfortunately have two issues to deal with: my car is RHD, which means I'm pretty much stuck with RSA Facility, and I want to use it as a dual-purpose car. (before anyone rolls their eyes, I'm a 40yr-old with a perfect driving record, car builder/restorer, and not some speedracerboy)

                    Realistically, do I have any recourse regarding the second issue, other than hoping my insurance company doesn't find out it's being time trialed? Or are we limited to owning track-only cars? If so, I'm out....I can't afford and have no space for a third vehicle+trailer, etc.
                    The only possibility I see is to limit my track time to open lapping events, as these are not timed (though, it's likely that the insurance companies would revoke my insurance for that, too).

                    In the latest TAC newsletter there was a lot of discussion about declining membership, especially in the area of Solo I/Solospring racing. I think this is a major factor that prevents new members from getting involved. I really think we need some alternatives available to everyone. Ideas such as a new insurance company offering useable options (Lant/Wayfarer used to allow it
                    under their Custom plan, but Aviva, their underwriter, has now restricted their policies), shared ownership of track-only cars, rent-a-racer programs (I know some places like Mantis do this, but they're pretty expensive). There's got to be other options out there!

                    Sorry for the long-winded rant...I just find this so depressing. I was really looking forward to getting out this year.
                    The best thing I ever did was a shared ownership arrangement on a track only car. If you want more details pm me and we'll set up a quick call and I'll help where I can. I think I have a perspective that might help.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                      Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                      what I'm hearing is if I, or someone else, gets hurt and OHIP gets involved, then OHIP ends up going to the the driver's insurance company to pay the bill. .
                      I am a physician who has been in practice almost 30 years () and I've never heard of such a thing.

                      OHIP covers you if you get injured skiing, sky diving, wrestling and doing any number of stupid or risky things. Driving fast on a race track is no different

                      3rd party liability is the issue and I believe that is what ASN insurance and waver signing is supposed to protect you from. I don't believe it makes any difference if you hurt someone else with your race car OR your street car.

                      The majority of SoloSprint cars are street driven, not trailer queens.
                      Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                        The underlying fear (for some) is that if an insurance company finds out that you are racing, they M A Y cancel your insurance, although i have yet to hear a concrete answer on that one.

                        with regards to actually BEING insured, you should have no fear that in the event of an accident you will be covered for liabity.

                        now if you flip your car or eat wall, well, then you're out of luck. Same if you wreck the car of another competitor with your car. However, we pride ourself on not having a single on track car to car collision, which is what makes solosprint so safe, even during lapping.
                        set tire pressures to winning!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                          I like driving my insured street car on the track, I almost feel like I'm getting back at my insurance company for charging me rediculous rates! I don't think they will really care if it's a timed event or not; all they would care is that your car is being piloted on a race track.

                          While we're on the subject, has anyone here in Ontario even been "caught" racing their car on a track and had their policy cancelled? Or are people just way too up tight? I can see an insurance company cancelling your policy after you share with them that you plowed your car into the wall in turn 2, but what are the odds of them catching you at the race track? Unless your insurnace adjuster just so happens to be a fellow racer (and a dink).
                          '93 Mazda MX6 LS - Sold
                          '03 Nissan 350Z Track - Sold <tears>
                          '07 Subaru Impreza 2.5i

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                            Originally posted by Parker View Post
                            While we're on the subject, has anyone here in Ontario even been "caught" racing their car on a track and had their policy cancelled? Or are people just way too up tight? I can see an insurance company cancelling your policy after you share with them that you plowed your car into the wall in turn 2, but what are the odds of them catching you at the race track? Unless your insurnace adjuster just so happens to be a fellow racer (and a dink).
                            I just got off the phone with my broker, and they have experienced that in their own office, as well as a friend of one of the rep's husband, so I know it happens. In the latter case, there was a person hired by an insurance company at the track taking down plate numbers and VINs. They seem to be getting very serious about this. Insurance companies are tightening up their policies - try to find a company that will insure a RHD vehicle now versus a year ago - and forcing people to go to Facility.

                            I just had an appraisal done on my car (a requirement from Facility to renew my policy) and he mentioned that police are now required to report modifications to insurance companies, as the policies regarding performance modification are also being tightened. This is getting ridiculous.

                            Unfortunately, I'm risk adverse so I'm not willing to stick my head in the sand and hope I don't get caught. It's not the property damage that I'm worried about - my car is not worth that much and I know ASN provides a good policy at the track....I'm more concerned about legal liability if my insurance company deems that I am in breach of contract and they come after me for a personal injury claim.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                              Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
                              I just got off the phone with my broker, and they have experienced that in their own office, as well as a friend of one of the rep's husband, so I know it happens. In the latter case, there was a person hired by an insurance company at the track taking down plate numbers and VINs. They seem to be getting very serious about this. Insurance companies are tightening up their policies - try to find a company that will insure a RHD vehicle now versus a year ago - and forcing people to go to Facility.

                              I just had an appraisal done on my car (a requirement from Facility to renew my policy) and he mentioned that police are now required to report modifications to insurance companies, as the policies regarding performance modification are also being tightened. This is getting ridiculous.

                              Unfortunately, I'm risk adverse so I'm not willing to stick my head in the sand and hope I don't get caught. It's not the property damage that I'm worried about - my car is not worth that much and I know ASN provides a good policy at the track....I'm more concerned about legal liability if my insurance company deems that I am in breach of contract and they come after me for a personal injury claim.
                              you are covered at the track for liability

                              you are not covered at the track for car damage


                              if you are worried about your insurance company walking out on you in the event that you hit someone on the street based on the fact that at some point in the past you drove at a race track... well, is that even legal?
                              set tire pressures to winning!

                              Comment

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