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  • #46
    Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

    Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
    Huh? I am a member, and it's my thread! Why are you worried about people being able to read the thread? If there is a real issue with insurance, I want to know about it, hence the reason for the thread. I refuse to ignore the elephant in the room and just leave it to chance.
    What RaceCarTech is saying is that anyone can join in or read this forum. You have no way of knowing the true identity of some of the participants in this thread.

    A members only forum would exclude participants who don't meet certain criteria.
    Chuck Atkins

    Ontario 1500 Motorsport Adventure Organizer
    Former CASC-OR Ontario Time Attack Director
    Former ASN Canada FIA SoloSport Ontario Rep

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

      The main issue is what you may become legally liable for arising from the use and operation from your vehicle (even if it’s on the track). I can see everyone understands that your auto policy won’t cover damages to your car if you wreck it on the track, but liability coverage cannot be denied and accident benefits are required by law to be paid to anyone injured in an auto accident in Ontario.

      Anyone can bring a legal action against you from an incident at the track resulting from the use of your car. This could be another driver, spectators, the track itself (maybe you messed up real bad and did a number on property owned by the track). I know you’re thinking that you’ll only really damage guardrails and your own vehicle, but think of the other things you could hit there, even a response vehicle. Even if coverage exists elsewhere, the insurer can still seek subrogation from your policy.

      Here’s how the defence costs are written in:
      “If someone sues you for losses suffered in an automobile incident, we will provide defence and cover the costs of that defence, including investigation costs. We will pay all legal costs the court assesses against you and other insured persons in the lawsuit we have defended.”
      This is regardless of use. If your car is brought in, your auto insurer will be involved, and will have defend you and their policies coverages in some cases. $$$$$ The insurer can even be required by law to make payments they are not liable for (in which case they would seek reimbursement)

      I’ll have to have a look at the event policies to see how they respond and what they cover, but I can see that the participants’ coverage is written as such:“This coverage is written on an excess basis over any other
      valid and collectable medical insurance that the injured participant might have
      available to them.”
      Which would be your auto policy, OHIP, etc.

      Here’s the questions asked on the Ontario application for auto insurance:
      Has any insurance company cancelled automobile insurance for the applicant or any listed driver in the last 3 years?
      During the last 3 years, has any automobile insurance policy issued to the applicant or any listed driver been cancelled or has any claim been denied for material misrepresentation?
      Has the applicant or any listed driver been found by a court to have committed a fraud connected with automobile insurance?
      Don’t lie about these either, as that would be mis-rep, and the insurer has access to this information.
      It also asks if the vehicle has been modified, and gives a definition:
      “Modified/customized includes changes, other than repairs or restorations that affect the original manufacturer’s design specifications or increase the value of the automobile. These may include, but are not limited to: engine modifications; paint changes; non-factory installed wheels, tires and electronic accessories and equipment, etc. If you are insured for “Loss or Damage Coverage”, there is a $1500 limit on non-factory installed electronic accessories and equipment.”
      This is an area where you could be cancelled for non-disclosure down the road, or not insured to begin with.


      You must promptly tell us of any change in information supplied in your original application for insurance, such as additional drivers, or a change in the way a described automobile is used.
      Same thing, you could be cancelled for material change in risk or non-disclosure.

      Speed test is pretty vague and it would be hard to argue that driving around a track, even lapping, was not a “speed test” TSD rallies.. well that’s grey, but it does include “speed” as a factor.
      You agree not to use or allow anyone to use the automobile in a race or speed test


      The policy will also explain how false or misleading statements or representations to an insurer is an offence under the insurance act, same with the criminal code on false documents, and deceit. And the large penalties that could result

      Here’s how your insurance can be cancelled:
      Where your policy has been in effect for up to 60 days, we may only cancel your policy for a reason that we have filed with the Financial Services Commission of Ontario. (An example of a filed reason would be “any right-hand drive vehicle”)
      Where your policy has been in effect for more than 60 days, we may only cancel your policy for one of the following reasons:
      - non-payment of premium ..you have 3 chances in a year
      - you have given false particulars of the automobile to our prejudice
      - you have knowingly misrepresented or failed to disclose information that you were required to provide in the application for automobile insurance, or
      - the risk has changed materially

      As for the talks of spies at the track seeking to cancel insurance, I have not personally heard of this actually happening (not my area anyways, i'm in commercial insurance) but we can search policies by vin, but not by license plate #


      That's just a few things I picked out and tried to offer a little insight on, and I realize it doesn't answer the question "what should you do" because it's a legal mess. Insurer's don't want to take on the added risk and potential for huge liability claims and even greater defense costs. There are specialty markets that can cover this, but as mentioned, it translates into expensive.

      Bottom line, if shit hits the fan with your street insured vehicle, your insurance company will know and likely be dragged in.

      Hope that helps a little.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

        Originally posted by VERNA_47 View Post
        Bottom line, if shit hits the fan with your street insured vehicle, your insurance company will know and likely be dragged in.

        Hope that helps a little.
        Yes it does - thanks for that Verna_47.

        Mind if I ask a hypothetical question? If someone removed the plates from their track toy, and reduced their insurance to cover only fire and theft, would the insurance company still be on the hook for liability claims if someone else were injured by that vehicle while at the track? I'm guessing no, as there is no longer a liability policy to claim against...or does the law still hold them to that?
        "Asking the front wheels of a car to do <more than> their normal job of steering ... is like asking a man to wire a plug while juggling. Penguins. While making love. To a beautiful woman, while on fire, on stage, in front of the Queen. It's all going to go wrong." - J.C.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

          Originally posted by Burnsey View Post
          Mind if I ask a hypothetical question? If someone removed the plates from their track toy, and reduced their insurance to cover only fire and theft, would the insurance company still be on the hook for liability claims if someone else were injured by that vehicle while at the track?
          From what I understand reading through the Ontario insurance rules, all auto insurance policies, at a minimum, must include personal injury liability coverage. I don't think you can remove that if you are driving the vehicle.

          Verna_47 - thanks for the excellent analysis!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

            Originally posted by johnnyjohnny View Post
            From what I understand reading through the Ontario insurance rules, all auto insurance policies, at a minimum, must include personal injury liability coverage. I don't think you can remove that if you are driving the vehicle.

            Verna_47 - thanks for the excellent analysis!
            That means you can't legally drive the car on the street, but driving it offroad (on a race track) should really be no different than taking a track only car to the track.

            For instance, every winter I remove Liability and Collision on my summer car, but I leave Comp (Fire&Theft) on it. So during that period, I'm not allowed to drive it on the street, but technically I could tow it to the track and drive it there and still have no liability coverage. Really at that point it's no different than my track car (with no insurance), at least as I understand it.
            -=Brian=-

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

              Originally posted by thekid View Post
              That means you can't legally drive the car on the street, but driving it offroad (on a race track) should really be no different than taking a track only car to the track.

              For instance, every winter I remove Liability and Collision on my summer car, but I leave Comp (Fire&Theft) on it. So during that period, I'm not allowed to drive it on the street, but technically I could tow it to the track and drive it there and still have no liability coverage. Really at that point it's no different than my track car (with no insurance), at least as I understand it.
              In this case what happens if the car rolls of the trailer? Would the insurance from the towing vehicle cover it??? Be that a personal truck...

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                no your truck insurance does not cover it in that case.

                the truck trailer and contents are covered while together. If the trailer comes off, it is no longer on your insurance. (unless it is the neglect of someone else), ie someone else hits you and is deemed at fault.

                again you can play out 100's of different senerios of what is or isn't covered.

                In Solosprint liability insurance is purchased by the series.
                there are cars driven to the track, there are cars trailered to the track.
                There have been incidents and damage to cars.
                I do not recall any lawsuits to individuals resulting from this activity.

                If you want coverage for motorsports, find it and post the broker and company that offers it.

                There is not a clear and decisive answer to what you are asking.

                My broker puts it into these catagories.

                who is responsible for:care, custody and control of an insured object.
                was there neglect of the object while in that custody?
                was there carelessness involved?
                those types of questions and answers will determine who is liable.

                So if you bring your car to the track, respect it, respect others and don't do anything stupid.

                If you wreck your car somehow, (and remember there is mechanical failure), suck it up and be ready to pay out of pocket.

                This is not wheel to wheel racing so collisions between cars better not happen.

                Verna, thank you for chiming in
                sigpic

                http://www.can-alignment.com http://trackmart.com

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                  I think for the most part all of us guys are prepared cover all on TRACK damages outside of liability.

                  Is liability covered by the waivers and track insurance? Or would we have to go to our insurance companies for this? As stated earlier, all these events could be considered speed test, and besides the fact that our cars are modified wouldn't our insurance companies just be able to make the payments to the parties we are liable and then turn around and sue us for those payments.

                  Also, my more pressing concern is driving on the street with our modified cars. So if I didn't tell my insurance company that my car was modified and kept street driving it, and someday some no fault accident happened, and outside of damages there were liability cost would my insurance company pay those liability cost, or would they able to walk away.

                  When i say walk away i refer to them making the mandatory payment of liability to third persons and then collecting this amount from me through suing me.

                  I m reading both a textbook and the Ontario automobile policy, and they aren't particularly clear on the matter. Moreover, even after reading the highly educated responses from several members, I'm still very unclear as to how insurance works for liability both on and off track. Does anyone have some actual experience in the matter?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                    To make yourself personally liable you have to do something that is against the rules.

                    Ie, passing a car in the corner and causing a collision.

                    If you break the rules the waivers and the organizers can not be relied on to bail you out.

                    bottom line is not to do anything to put anouther competitor in harms way
                    sigpic

                    http://www.can-alignment.com http://trackmart.com

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                      "To make yourself personally liable you have to do something that is against the rules."

                      NO...

                      any negligence on a persons part can make them liable, and waivers and ect..do not protect you in a court of law..simple as that
                      Former CCC member, and shit disturber

                      winner of a bunch of different classes over many years

                      breaker of parts, burner of engines

                      CREATOR OF "ULTIMATE DOOM 570SX"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                        Originally posted by ADAM View Post
                        "To make yourself personally liable you have to do something that is against the rules."

                        NO...

                        any negligence on a persons part can make them liable, and waivers and ect..do not protect you in a court of law..simple as that
                        negligence has to be proven though, no?
                        set tire pressures to winning!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                          Originally posted by hsgrewal View Post
                          I think for the most part all of us guys are prepared cover all on TRACK damages outside of liability.

                          Is liability covered by the waivers and track insurance? Or would we have to go to our insurance companies for this? As stated earlier, all these events could be considered speed test, and besides the fact that our cars are modified wouldn't our insurance companies just be able to make the payments to the parties we are liable and then turn around and sue us for those payments.

                          Also, my more pressing concern is driving on the street with our modified cars. So if I didn't tell my insurance company that my car was modified and kept street driving it, and someday some no fault accident happened, and outside of damages there were liability cost would my insurance company pay those liability cost, or would they able to walk away.

                          When i say walk away i refer to them making the mandatory payment of liability to third persons and then collecting this amount from me through suing me.

                          I m reading both a textbook and the Ontario automobile policy, and they aren't particularly clear on the matter. Moreover, even after reading the highly educated responses from several members, I'm still very unclear as to how insurance works for liability both on and off track. Does anyone have some actual experience in the matter?
                          While you are at the track, our ASN insurance covers third party liability.

                          A lot of people drive modified cars on the street - most have not told their insurance broker about the changes. It's the after accident claim with photographs that get you in the end. That is when they walk away. You still have liability insurance but no collision. It is always best to talk with your insurance rep to see if you can be covered. The up side is that if you have upgraded your car, for example better wheels or a better stereo, they will just increase your premium. The down side is that they may tell you that they won't insure your car.

                          If someone tells you that ther highly modified car is insured as is, ask to see their insurance policy with the modifications listed. They are probably not telling you the whole truth.

                          But, in the event that it is insured as modified be sure to let us know. That company will be blind sided with new customers.
                          Chuck Atkins

                          Ontario 1500 Motorsport Adventure Organizer
                          Former CASC-OR Ontario Time Attack Director
                          Former ASN Canada FIA SoloSport Ontario Rep

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                            "negligence has to be proven though, no?"


                            as with anything in the court..yes...
                            Former CCC member, and shit disturber

                            winner of a bunch of different classes over many years

                            breaker of parts, burner of engines

                            CREATOR OF "ULTIMATE DOOM 570SX"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                              The Oshawa Motor Sports Club has Tony Lant of Lant Insurance Brokers booked as a guest speaker for our May meeting. Lant are the people who bring you the Custom Wheels and Silver Wheels programs.
                              Tony is willing to speak openly and honestly about our insurance issues. He's also willing to take any questions. We can all use pseudonyms
                              Everyone is welcome to our meetings so please feel free to attend.

                              Andy

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Insurance...sorry to bring it up

                                Originally posted by Locost View Post
                                The Oshawa Motor Sports Club has Tony Lant of Lant Insurance Brokers booked as a guest speaker for our May meeting. Lant are the people who bring you the Custom Wheels and Silver Wheels programs.
                                Tony is willing to speak openly and honestly about our insurance issues. He's also willing to take any questions. We can all use pseudonyms
                                Everyone is welcome to our meetings so please feel free to attend.

                                Andy
                                afaik.... lant covers show and shine types.. not cars involved in motorsports
                                :shrug:

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