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  • #91
    Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

    Originally posted by John P View Post
    Maybe Hp vs torque would balance classification out?

    Consider the 99-04 Mustang has 260 hp but torque of 302 ft lbs. The Honda S2000 is rated at 240 hp but only torque of 162 ft-lbs. That will make a significant difference in times. Both cars have wt to hp in the 12's.

    Further, North American cars have much more hp/tq available from allowed mods such as cat back exhaust, CAI. S2000 mods add very little hp (if any).

    Sure the Mustang requires an improved stock suspension, but then in 2012 it has 15 less Handling index (equivalent to 4.5 PI) than the S2000.

    I haven't an answer, but I agree that we need some method of balancing HP/TQ across classes.

    Maybe change for 2014?

    JohnP

    S2k with 180lb driver - 13.02 lb/hp
    Mustang with 180 lb driver - 13.48 lb/hp
    Mustang with 270hp and 180lb driver - 12.98

    Following vid, s2k has a wing.
    http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=ht...ame=meahwahwah


    For our racing purposes, torque hardly matters. Torque is good for burnouts and lazy people who don't like shifting . There are the odd times where you're stuck inbetween gears exiting a corner but that just means you need more car prep like maybe a pip for gearing change, or stickier tires.
    Last edited by Ujjwal; 11-06-2012, 02:24 PM. Reason: corrected video link
    2010 to 2013 OTA competitor with a Honda, Ford, and a BMW.

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    • #92
      Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

      Originally posted by Ujjwal View Post
      S2k with 180lb driver - 13.02 lb/hp
      Mustang with 180 lb driver - 13.48 lb/hp
      Mustang with 270hp and 180lb driver - 12.98

      Following vid, s2k has a wing.
      http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=ht...ame=meahwahwah


      For our racing purposes, torque hardly matters. Torque is good for burnouts and lazy people who don't like shifting . There are the odd times where you're stuck inbetween gears exiting a corner but that just means you need more car prep like maybe a pip for gearing change, or stickier tires.
      its not just about tq its about avg horsepower over a set rpm range...generally a high tq motor will have a higher avg horsepower

      I'm about to provide some very good proof in about 5 minutes just have to find a dyno graph
      sigpic

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      • #93
        Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

        let's say you spend most of your time between 2500rpms below rev limit and rev limit

        here's a 242 wheel hp b18(actually 2.0)

        http://www.evans-tuning.com/dynos/20...tock-pr3-head/

        this motor makes about 190whp 2500 rpms shy of the rev limiter

        i don't have my dyno online but i'm looking at it right here and it peaked at 245whp so almost exactly the same but 2500rpms shy of rev limiter its already making 210whp. So everytime I leave a corner I have 20whp more pulling me off the corner! Ujjwal wouldn't you agree that 20whp pulling you out of a corner would be beneficial?

        On a side note mine peak hp also plateau's for just a hair over 1000rpms! Which is something that is just not going to happen in a high hp low tq motor
        sigpic

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        • #94
          Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

          Power is key, torque is totally irrelevant.

          But HP under the curve is absolutely what determines performance, peak HP is just a proxy for that.

          There certainly is a trend where crappy domestic motors with "high" torque helpfully run out of breath long before redline and get a nice flat HP curve while well engineered "low" torque JDM motors make power to fuel cut and have peaky HP curves. But the high torque/area under the power curve relationship is not fixed.

          For example, when Honda stroked the S2000 motor it gained power but lost area under the curve due to the lower redline. Thus, the higher torque motor is actually the peakier motor as well.

          The Mustang has very good power under the curve, the C5Z06 has fairly bad area under the power curve, the CRX is sort of middle of the road. All are pretty conservatively rated cars.

          Jim: for what it is worth most potential changes on the table that I would support would give the ITR more pips to play with vs the vette (or no change)
          03 Z06 #72
          15 Prius V

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          • #95
            Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

            Originally posted by Lloyd_ View Post
            Power is key, torque is totally irrelevant.

            But HP under the curve is absolutely what determines performance, peak HP is just a proxy for that.

            There certainly is a trend where crappy domestic motors with "high" torque helpfully run out of breath long before redline and get a nice flat HP curve while well engineered "low" torque JDM motors make power to fuel cut and have peaky HP curves. But the high torque/area under the power curve relationship is not fixed.

            For example, when Honda stroked the S2000 motor it gained power but lost area under the curve due to the lower redline. Thus, the higher torque motor is actually the peakier motor as well.

            The Mustang has very good power under the curve, the C5Z06 has fairly bad area under the power curve, the CRX is sort of middle of the road. All are pretty conservatively rated cars.

            Jim: for what it is worth most potential changes on the table that I would support would give the ITR more pips to play with vs the vette (or no change)
            Very interesting and valid point about the s2k. Maybe hp could be measured at 3 different spots? Peak, 1250 below, 2500 below?
            sigpic

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            • #96
              Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

              More horsepower is always better! The right amount of horsepower is another question altogether.

              Here's a GT3 class AP1 s2k on the same day vs my mustang. Consider that the stang has no passenger seat, 40lb weight reduction from the wheel/tire combo from OEM.


              I mean, don't get me wrong, it definitely helps, but it's not a huge impact.

              Also just for kicks, post 8:
              http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthr...highlight=dyno

              You know which car is not super torquey? The C5Z and it finished second this year. There are bigger fish to fry than the torque debate.

              edit:

              The strong yellow line that has the higher top speed in the picture is the mustang.
              2010 to 2013 OTA competitor with a Honda, Ford, and a BMW.

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              • #97
                Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                Guys, some people find our rule book to be too complicated already (and complain vociferously about it !) Adding Torque to the equation is going to make it more so. It also opens the door to adding overall wgt to the Handling index calculation.
                Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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                • #98
                  Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                  Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                  Guys, some people find our rule book to be too complicated already (and complain vociferously about it !) Adding Torque to the equation is going to make it more so. It also opens the door to adding overall wgt to the Handling index calculation.


                  Make it much more simple or make it as close to perfect as possible. But don't have it super complicated rule book and classification system if a mustang is going to win overall every year without having to make more then one competition run!

                  If you're not willing to simplify the rules you might as well make them more complex. The people that don't want to be a part of a complicated ruleset aren't going to come out anyways
                  sigpic

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                  • #99
                    Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                    Originally posted by KLZEMX6 View Post
                    But don't have it super complicated rule book and classification system if a mustang is going to win overall every year without having to make more then one competition run!
                    100% agree with you, Jim. One car dominating (minimum runs, minimum of six events entered) and still win overall and class is a problem for the OTA Series keeping existing competitors and attracting new ones.

                    JohnP

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                    • Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                      Originally posted by KLZEMX6 View Post
                      Make it much more simple or make it as close to perfect as possible. But don't have it super complicated rule book and classification system if a mustang is going to win overall every year without having to make more then one competition run!
                      I agree, if we go with the changes I suggested, it would create a fairer competition environment. The balance of power between high hp cars and low hp cars must be restored!

                      Anyways, if you want to see a Honda win overall, it would be a lot easier if we could just leave the rules the way they are and Scott could co drive your car. Gotta love the off season .
                      2010 to 2013 OTA competitor with a Honda, Ford, and a BMW.

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                      • Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                        Originally posted by Ujjwal View Post
                        I agree, if we go with the changes I suggested, it would create a fairer competition environment. The balance of power between high hp cars and low hp cars must be restored!

                        Anyways, if you want to see a Honda win overall, it would be a lot easier if we could just leave the rules the way they are and Scott could co drive your car. Gotta love the off season .
                        Ooooooooo burn I love it
                        sigpic

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                        • Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                          What would be even more exciting is if you co drove my car for CASC, and I co drove yours for CSCS. Just throwing that out there as you wanted to co drive a certain c5z .
                          2010 to 2013 OTA competitor with a Honda, Ford, and a BMW.

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                          • Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                            Originally posted by Ujjwal View Post
                            What would be even more exciting is if you co drove my car for CASC, and I co drove yours for CSCS. Just throwing that out there as you wanted to co drive a certain c5z .

                            Now that would be very exciting!
                            sigpic

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                            • Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                              I gotta get in on some of this co-driving stuff. I think it would help the car classification stuff aswell, seems how we have limited data to work off of.

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                              • Re: Competitor Meeting Ideas Thread

                                co-driving is a great idea and I highly recommend it, but it is very hard on the car, especially if your the type of person who likes to take advantage of every last minute of track time. I consider my car to be a tank considering it made it through 14 events this season(2 of which were co-driven) all the while rolling over 272K. I am not sure I could have made it through an entire season with 2 drivers though.. Just something to think about.
                                Corey Whiteman

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