Quick Hello

[KLZEMX6]

Re: Quick Hello

okay, do it, show us how it's done...

get a T1 car and slap some motons on it and take our series in 2014

i'll buy the car you buy the motons...if I don't win the series i'll pay you for the motons

[3wheeler]

Re: Quick Hello

but why would you?

the performance gain is marginal compared to potentially doubling or even trippling your power.

Penske's will surely make your car faster, but it's not gonna make the car lighter, more powerful, or somehow turn your RS3s into R6s

there is a finite and measurable limit to upgrading shocks.

this is why no one in our series has ever really dumped such large stacks into their suspension and AFAIK no one's ever won the series on Penske's

So what are you saying exactly? You should not bother doing suspension at all and focus on weight reduction, power, and tires? If you are not saying this, and you do think stock suspension must be changed at some point, then optimizing means going to Penskes/Ohlins/Motons etc, no matter how small the difference, right? That cost more money the last time I checked, and I think that is the point James is trying to make.

I like to think my car is pretty damn close to being fully optimized(and it has taken allot money, time and sweat), but to be honest, if I had 10K lying around, I could, without a doubt in mind optimize my car even more, and gain at least 1-2 seconds on most tracks. In OTA, it is obviously not as dramatic as CSCS where rules are more open, but the ONLY reason we are even comparing the two is that the classing structure is so COMPLETELY different. You and James are BOTH right to a certain degree! Money will always improve(no matter how little) your chances of winning- it has been proved many times over.

So can someone explain what we are discussing here...

[thgear]

Re: Quick Hello

okay, which suspension package would we be looking at here

[KLZEMX6]

Re: Quick Hello

So what are you saying exactly? You should not bother doing suspension at all and focus on weight reduction, power, and tires? If you are not saying this, and you do think stock suspension must be changed at some point, then optimizing means going to Penskes/Ohlins/Motons etc, no matter how small the difference, right? That cost more money the last time I checked, and I think that is the point James is trying to make.

I like to think my car is pretty damn close to being fully optimized(and it has taken allot money, time and sweat), but to be honest, if I had 10K lying around, I could, without a doubt in mind optimize my car even more, and gain at least 1-2 seconds on most tracks. In OTA, it is obviously not as dramatic as CSCS where rules are more open, but the ONLY reason we are even comparing the two is that the classing structure is so COMPLETELY different. You and James are BOTH right to a certain degree! Money will always improve(no matter how little) your chances of winning- it has been proved many times over.

So can someone explain what we are discussing here...

Thank you Corey I think you worded that much better then I did but you got across exactly what I was trying to say!

[thgear]

Re: Quick Hello

So what are you saying exactly?

So what are you saying exactly?

we're discussing the power of money

in OTA, if you spend a significant amount of money on your car, you will generally move up the totem pole. So aside from simply wanting a faster car and tinkering in your garage, there isn’t that much incentive to drop stacks if your goal is winning the championship and scoring high in pax.

This has been demonstrated every year by drivers scoring high in low-budget cars.


With regards to optimizing. We’ve setup our pip system so that it’s hard to beat it in terms of power and weight. Generally, the more money you dump into your car the more inclined you would be to having it dynoed. If you make too many body modifications we FORCE you to weigh your car. With said dyno and weight sheet we simply put you into an appropriate class. In effect, your $$$ has little influence on your competitiveness in this regard.

(unless you’re in unlimited, but that’s outside the scope of this discussion)

This is different from CSCS, which doesn’t limit your power mods. So someone that spends money on their engine is in the same class as someone that’s spent zero. Guess who has an advantage as a result of $$$?


Now, what James is critiquing is that we have our own loopholes, the most obvious one being Shocks. But as I outlined before, you are limited in the potential. A moton is better than a koni, but for most people the improvement is not justified by the price…. Otherwise we would see more competitors on Penskes and MOtons and Ohlins etc.

In this regard I believe James is wrong in comparing the potential benefits of optimized suspension vs the potential benefits of doubling or tripling your car’s power output while remaining in the same class.


the point is, OTA's structure has a much smaller correlation between money spent and competetiveness gained.

if you spend 2000 dollars on your suspension and another guy spends 20,000 on his suspension. He will be faster than you, but not by any astronomical amoutns.

however, if this was CSCS, then the other guy would just buy the same suspension as you and spend the rest 18,000 on his engine

.. you see what i'm getting at?


in OTA no one is buying the super suspensions because it's not justified, while in CSCS no one is buying it because no one else is buying it.

James himself is a perfect example, setting record times on leaky super-soakers. He decided to spend his money elsewhere because he was getting more time reduction for money spent...

[Ujjwal]

Re: Quick Hello

If you are not saying this, and you do think stock suspension must be changed at some point, then optimizing means going to Penskes/Ohlins/Motons etc, no matter how small the difference, right?

I like to think my car is pretty damn close to being fully optimized(and it has taken allot money, time and sweat), but to be honest, if I had 10K lying around, I could, without a doubt in mind optimize my car even more, and gain at least 1-2 seconds on most tracks.

Maybe the question is, what is the cheapest way to get 6 pips worth of suspension . If you say you can get 1 - 2 seconds more from higher end stuff, or tuning the setup you have now, it would make those 6 pips look like a bargain! I'm guessing you are getting your 6 pips worth as it is. I think in line with what Serge was saying, you don't need Penske's to win the series, but weight/hp is a huge factor - one that OTA puts 70% emphasis on. We should make a fantasy car draft for each series and what mods you would pick given a $20k budget. Then compare how that car would do against the current competition.

[KLZEMX6]

Re: Quick Hello

we're discussing the power of money

in OTA, if you spend a significant amount of money on your car, you will generally move up the totem pole. So aside from simply wanting a faster car and tinkering in your garage, there isn’t that much incentive to drop stacks if your goal is winning the championship and scoring high in pax.

This has been demonstrated every year by drivers scoring high in low-budget cars.


With regards to optimizing. We’ve setup our pip system so that it’s hard to beat it in terms of power and weight. Generally, the more money you dump into your car the more inclined you would be to having it dynoed. If you make too many body modifications we FORCE you to weigh your car. With said dyno and weight sheet we simply put you into an appropriate class. In effect, your $$$ has little influence on your competitiveness in this regard.

(unless you’re in unlimited, but that’s outside the scope of this discussion)

This is different from CSCS, which doesn’t limit your power mods. So someone that spends money on their engine is in the same class as someone that’s spent zero. Guess who has an advantage as a result of $$$?


Now, what James is critiquing is that we have our own loopholes, the most obvious one being Shocks. But as I outlined before, you are limited in the potential. A moton is better than a koni, but for most people the improvement is not justified by the price…. Otherwise we would see more competitors on Penskes and MOtons and Ohlins etc.

In this regard I believe James is wrong in comparing the potential benefits of optimized suspension vs the potential benefits of doubling or tripling your car’s power output while remaining in the same class.


the point is, OTA's structure has a much smaller correlation between money spent and competetiveness gained.

if you spend 2000 dollars on your suspension and another guy spends 20,000 on his suspension. He will be faster than you, but not by any astronomical amoutns.

however, if this was CSCS, then the other guy would just buy the same suspension as you and spend the rest 18,000 on his engine

.. you see what i'm getting at?


in OTA no one is buying the super suspensions because it's not justified, while in CSCS no one is buying it because no one else is buying it.

James himself is a perfect example, setting record times on leaky super-soakers. He decided to spend his money elsewhere because he was getting more time reduction for money spent...

I have 200+ whp more then I had last year and so far the car is 3 tenths faster at tmp then it was last year. It has more in it but I think at this point the motons would've helped me more then the supercharger. Only thing is the supercharger was 2500 the motons are waaaay more then that!

So your argument about how easy it is to go faster with so much power isn't really relevant in a fwd chassis anyways. Utilizing that power is actually quite difficult!

In ota and cscs almost no one is buying moton's not because its not justified because its too damn expensive and its a big purchase all at once!

p.s. I'm not on leaky supersoakers my car is on shortened and revalved koni adjustables

Maybe the question is, what is the cheapest way to get 6 pips worth of suspension . If you say you can get 1 - 2 seconds more from higher end stuff, or tuning the setup you have now, it would make those 6 pips look like a bargain! I'm guessing you are getting your 6 pips worth as it is. I think in line with what Serge was saying, you don't need Penske's to win the series, but weight/hp is a huge factor - one that OTA puts 70% emphasis on. We should make a fantasy car draft for each series and what mods you would pick given a $20k budget. Then compare how that car would do against the current competition.

You don't need Penske's to win the series but if someone built a twin of corey's car and optimized everything fully and could wheel a car like Corey then the win would come from the amount of money they spent on the car. So what's the different from the other series?

[Dave Barker]

Re: Quick Hello

Jim, I'm sorry you have been so offended by my comments. BTW if you look at my post, there is no reference to one particular series but I would say that both of the other series, at least in the faster classes, reward the bigger expenses. As Serge has nicely pointed out, in our series, usually greater expense just moves you up a class.

Your point on Motons vs Konis is completely valid and at this stage I don't have a good solution but certainly for us, the majority of competitors are not using the ultra expensive shocks despite their advantage. I guess they feel the cost may not be worth it.

Interestingly in the faster classes in OTA, there are a number of pretty stock cars as well as some modified ones. I doubt that is the case in either of the other series. Frankly both Lloyd and Chris's cars are virtually stock and the overall champion has had a pretty stock vehicle for the last few years with one exception. The overall winners have varied from T1 to SGT2.

As far as the dyno issue, our wgt/hp variable in the classification of PI has a serious fault which is that it doesn't look at torque. We can alter the base car handling index to adjust for this (hence the crazy high PI for the 2003 Mustang and 2002 Camaro) but we can't do that for cars with dyno plots. Yes data logging would be great but it is difficult to come by without good scales and GPS data.

Jim, I agree that all 3 time-attack series should survive and prosper as in actual fact we are not really that much in competition with each other. All 3 have things to offer but not the same things.

[thgear]

Re: Quick Hello

I have 200+ whp more then I had last year and so far the car is 3 tenths faster at tmp then it was last year.

that doesn't sound right

[thgear]

Re: Quick Hello

In ota and cscs almost no one is buying moton's not because its not justified because its too damn expensive and its a big purchase all at once!

i'd argue that, if you're in it for the long haul, this high-cost upgrade will end up being the most reliable and effective purchase over your car's 4-5 year racing career.

If the first mod you would have made to your ITR were Motons, you would have had a suspension edge over every single competitor all these years with much cheaper upkeep than your engine or FI bits.


if motons are indeed as good as you say they are, why not save up for them and call it a day. Why spend year after year doing small fixes that do little to improve your times when you've got this gold-mind right in front of you? Far as i know, a entry-to-mid range Ohlin or Penske will be between 7 to 10 grand. If you budget this (plus rebuilds) over 4-5 years it ain't so bad.

[3wheeler]

Re: Quick Hello

Maybe the question is, what is the cheapest way to get 6 pips worth of suspension . If you say you can get 1 - 2 seconds more from higher end stuff, or tuning the setup you have now, it would make those 6 pips look like a bargain! I'm guessing you are getting your 6 pips worth as it is. I think in line with what Serge was saying, you don't need Penske's to win the series, but weight/hp is a huge factor - one that OTA puts 70% emphasis on. We should make a fantasy car draft for each series and what mods you would pick given a $20k budget. Then compare how that car would do against the current competition.

I agree, they are worth 6 pips for sure! Of the 10K, I would spend 30% of that alone on revalving, springs, test days and trips to Scotts. You are right, you do not need Penske's, or 3K worth of testing to win the series, but the only reason this is true is that no one is optimized. If we had a big budget teams come in and decide to use an E36 for example, they would crush me and everyone else - and I am the current overall points leader. It won't happen, but it certainly CAN happen. We are talking extremes here but being naïve and saying you can't buy a championship is not true. OTA does an amazing job of trying to stop that, and I think we all appreciate it!

Serge worded it perfectly, "OTA's structure has a much smaller correlation between money spent and competitiveness gained"

If that was all that was said to begin with, there wouldn't be two pages of back and forth posting!

[thgear]

Re: Quick Hello

If that was all that was said to begin with, there wouldn't be two pages of back and forth posting!

sometimes you need a bit of discussion to arrive at those effective one-liners.

[3wheeler]

Re: Quick Hello

You don't need Penske's to win the series but if someone built a twin of corey's car and optimized everything fully and could wheel a car like Corey then the win would come from the amount of money they spent on the car. So what's the different from the other series?

See my post - thinking along the same lines. Like I already said, OTA is trying its very best to eliminate this problem, but I doubt it can ever be "fixed". This is motorsports afterall, and it will never be cheap!

To sum it up, CSCS and OTA are just too different to compare. CSCS has allot more freedom within its classing and with that comes the potential for more cost(if you plan on taking on a McLaren that is), and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all just need to accept it for what it is and focus on cross promotion!

James, just curious, what would it take to have you come out?

[Ujjwal]

Re: Quick Hello

You don't need Penske's to win the series but if someone built a twin of corey's car and optimized everything fully and could wheel a car like Corey then the win would come from the amount of money they spent on the car. So what's the different from the other series?

That won't happen for many reasons.
1) This is a budget minded series
2) The guy would still be required to set up his car
3) The guy would need to drive as good as Corey

At the end of the day, if driver contribution matters, it matters more in a series with stricter rules. There's really no getting around that. From the risk/analysis side, I would not blindly bet on Corey-Clone with Motons. At the picton autox this year, me and Barry beat in raw time, a decorated autoxer in the same car except he had AST's and non-premium R's, and we had Rivals and Konis, and this was a 90sec+ course. Whereas, if Corey-Clone had 100 more hp, I would blindly bet on that. That might be the difference between the series.

But yes, if we had a little US competitiveness creep into our series, we would all lose. There's no better recipe than money and talent. For the most part, I think us north of the border regulate ourselves quite well to compete fairly on equal grounds. The guy who gets all the super high end expensive stuff ends up sticking out like a sore thumb if he wins.

[3wheeler]

Re: Quick Hello

sometimes you need a bit of discussion to arrive at those effective one-liners.

Agreed.