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Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

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  • Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

    I suspect that this has been clarified before in previous years, yet I cannot find any mention of it after doing a search of the forum topics.

    Section 4.8.0.8 of the 2014 Regulations states:

    "Driver and passenger seats may be replaced with reclining sports seats. Any
    other unauthorized modification to the seating, including 5.1C.10 and
    5.1C.11, shall be declared under Section 5.1C, Body & Trim.
    Note: The 2009 rule, 4.9.0.5, has been deleted."

    In this case installation of a competition seat (i.e. non-reclining) would be considered to be an "unauthorized modification to the seating" and subject to the +1 PIP under 5.1.C.8, as well as possibly subject to the +0.5 PIP under 5.1.C.11.

    Is this interpretation correct?

    I would have thought that it would be a PIP-neutral modification since the installation of a competition seat permits the installation of a 5 or 6-pt. harness and would therefore be a modification that has the primary purpose of improving driver safety. (The weight savings would be a bonus. )

    (Note, I'm assuming that one would also install 5 or 6-pt. harnesses along with the competition seat, as per the manufacturer's requirements and OTA regulations. My question at this point is primarily concerned with the seat itself.)
    Last edited by jimmo-san; 03-07-2014, 11:22 AM.
    Jim (aka "Lawrence" in results). Red NA Miata and red NB Miata.

  • #2
    Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

    Originally posted by jimmo-san View Post
    In this case installation of a competition seat (i.e. non-reclining) would be considered to be an "unauthorized modification to the seating" and subject to the +1 PIP under 5.1.C.8, as well as possibly subject to the +0.5 PIP under 5.1.C.11.

    Is this interpretation correct?
    correct (if you are only touching the driver's seat, and that seat has motors/airbags in it).

    however, do note that you are free to replace or even remove the passenger seat at no pip cost (or 0.5 pips if it has motors/airbags).

    Originally posted by jimmo-san View Post
    I would have thought that it would be a PIP-neutral modification since the installation of a competition seat permits the installation of a 5 or 6-pt. harness and would therefore be a modification that has the primary purpose of improving driver safety.
    you're fishing...... a seat in by itself is considered a comfort(improved driver efficiency) and weight item (easily 40-60 pounds removed from the car)
    set tire pressures to winning!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

      Passenger seat removal is free if it has no motors or airbags? You sure about that Serge?
      Barry

      Citizen Cone Dodger

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

        Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post
        Passenger seat removal is free if it has no motors or airbags? You sure about that Serge?
        yes

        the original intent had something to do with people being forced to put in/modify their passenger seats for instructors (or something, I'm fuzzy now on what the reason was)

        but do note that the rule reads as follows:

        1 BPIP: .8 Non-authorized seat modification, of any or all front seats.
        Note: Removal of hardware as described in Section 5.1C.10
        and 5.1C.11 shall be assessed separately.



        while the following rules

        0.5BPIP: .10 Removal of passenger seat internal hardware defined as:
        airbags, motors; heaters; any other safety devices; any or all.

        0.5BIP: .11 Removal of driver seat internal hardware defined as: airbags; motors; heaters; any other safety devices; any or all.

        are quite specific.


        so in a car that has no airbags/motors, installing a bucket seat and entirely removing the passenger seat will set you back 1 pip.

        (the 0.5 pips for motors/airbags was just put in to reflect the average difference in weight in old vs modern seats).



        let me guess, you just found a way to save yourself 30 pounds?
        set tire pressures to winning!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

          Thanks for the clarification!

          Perhaps there should be -1 PIP for the installation of 5 or 6 pt. harnesses (in a car that does not specifically require them) and +1 PIP for the competition seat so that the competition seat + harness combo would be PIP-neutral. Just a thought.
          Jim (aka "Lawrence" in results). Red NA Miata and red NB Miata.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

            Lets be clear, the only Zero pip authorised modification is to change the seats (meaning BOTH driver and passenger seats) to other reclining seats under section 4.8.0.8. If the new reclining seats do not have the internal hardware that was present in the OE seats, then sections 5.1.C.10 and 11 come into play.

            If a driver takes a pip for a non authorised seat modification under 5.1.C.8 i.e he uses a fixed bucket type seat, then yes, removal of the passenger seat is free but 5.1.C.10 still applies.

            It is still important to remember 2 things here, bPIPs convert to full PIPs on a progressive scale such that they are more important in lower HP cars. Also you need roll over protection to run a 5 or 6 point harness (as well as the vast majority of 4 point systems) and most drivers who have a roll bar or cage take the race wgt option in which case it doesn't really matter what your bPIPs are.

            Yes Jimmo-san, you could argue that a seat is a safety option but in reality it is far more of a performance option and hence the PIPs for it. Personally I think a high performance seat with a harness is a really big performance improvement that is likely under rated in our series.
            Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

              Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
              most drivers who have a roll bar or cage take the race wgt option in which case it doesn't really matter what your bPIPs are.
              Domo arigato, Barker-san!

              If you would please see my question concerning how one can satisfy the documentation requirements for the race weight option:

              http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29409

              I would be most grateful!
              Jim (aka "Lawrence" in results). Red NA Miata and red NB Miata.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

                I was interested in a clarification regarding this section?

                5.1.C.9 Non-authorized rear seat modification. 0.5 bPIP

                Does this include the "complete" removal of the rear seat? which could probably be like 100 lbs in hardware.
                sigpicOTA - #95

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

                  To ensure I am interpreting this correctly for my 20 year old car with reclining seats, but no internal hardware whatsoever.

                  If I replace the seats with fixed bucket seats I shall claim 5.1.C.9

                  But since my passenger side has no internal hardware, I do not have to claim 5.1.C.10 for replacing the passenger side with one as well?

                  Total PIPs 0.5 ?
                  F.Sani
                  SGT3 - #614

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

                    Originally posted by FarShark View Post
                    To ensure I am interpreting this correctly for my 20 year old car with reclining seats, but no internal hardware whatsoever.

                    If I replace the seats with fixed bucket seats I shall claim 5.1.C.9

                    But since my passenger side has no internal hardware, I do not have to claim 5.1.C.10 for replacing the passenger side with one as well?

                    Total PIPs 0.5 ?
                    I think you need to claim 5.1.C.8 :Non authorised seat modification of any or all front seats for 1.0 bPIPs. It there was hardware in either of the seats you need to claim the extra 0.5 bPIPs x 2 seats

                    5.1.C.9 is for rear seats. Fixed buckets are not authorised as a free mod.
                    Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

                      Originally posted by Merkur_XR View Post
                      I was interested in a clarification regarding this section?

                      5.1.C.9 Non-authorized rear seat modification. 0.5 bPIP

                      Does this include the "complete" removal of the rear seat? which could probably be like 100 lbs in hardware.

                      Yes but I think you will be surprised about how light most rear seats are.

                      OTOH if you have some big honking motorised reclining rear seat we might charge you an extra 0.5 PIP for the removal of the electronic bits. Also if you DO have a car with a motorised rear seat, it is likely heavy enough that the bPIPs won't hurt you.
                      Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

                        Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                        Yes but I think you will be surprised about how light most rear seats are.

                        OTOH if you have some big honking motorised reclining rear seat we might charge you an extra 0.5 PIP for the removal of the electronic bits. Also if you DO have a car with a motorised rear seat, it is likely heavy enough that the bPIPs won't hurt you.
                        Well maybe 100 lbs was a stretch but they are leather. My old car has no sophisticated electronics in anything we are talking pre airbag, pre abs, pre third brake light even.

                        Thanks for the clarification.
                        sigpicOTA - #95

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Competition seat - is it a "non-authorized seat modification" under 5.1.C.8?

                          Thanks for the clarification.
                          F.Sani
                          SGT3 - #614

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