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Tips on Heal and Toe

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  • #31
    Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

    I have seen many drivers that know (the principle of) how to heel and toe but they do it too soon. If you are down-shifting as soon as you start braking, you would shift into a lower gear while you are still carrying a relative high speed, therefore the engine will have to rev up more to match that speed.
    For example, your braking zone is 4 seconds long, your downshift only takes 1 second ... move that downshift towards the end of the braking zone. When you release the clutch, the speed is slower and the revs are matched easier.

    The other mistake that a lot of drivers do is that they are very slow in releasing the clutch and by the time they are off the clutch pedal the revs have dropped way too low and effectively eliminating the benefit of the 'blip'.
    Klaus
    BMW 325es
    Solosprint SGT2, #192
    Solo 2 D/Mod, # 192

    The older I get, the faster I am ...

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    • #32
      Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

      ^ those were my exact 2 common errors in my first attempts teaching myself. Video review fixed it.

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      • #33
        Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

        Interesting to see the various videos. The throttle on my car is hinged from the top which means it is quite convenient to just roll my foot from side to side as long as the pedals are close enough together. The Porsche appears to be hinged at the bottom.You put the majority of the pressure under the ball of your right foot and roll at the ankle to blip the throttle with the outer part of your right foot. Seems to work for me.

        BTW Klaus is absolutely right about the other error of downshifting too earlyin a braking zone. The real question then becomes do you put the clutch in at the start of the braking zone of wait until you downshift at the end of it? My guess is it depends a bit on the brake balance of your car. I have tried it both ways and am not really sure which is better.

        2th PWR, I would prefer either a wider brake or throttle pedal.

        I would think having to pick up your foot unsupported to allow the "heel" motion required would be less precise than rolling your foot side to side i.e using your thigh muscles to control brake pressure rather than your calf muscles. I do not have a harness in my present car which means I need a lot of stability by keeping my right heel on the floor.
        Last edited by Dave Barker; 05-20-2014, 06:48 PM.
        Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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        • #34
          Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

          I literally bent the 'arm' on my gas pedal to make it closer to the brake and thus made heel'n toe easier.

          Heel'n Toe is a misnomer for most, who use a rolling motion from side to side. But we're stuck in history when that was the fashion. Plus who wants to call it 'Rollin my foot from side to side'.
          sigpicFrank - OTA #259 retired. I'm in BC now!

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          • #35
            Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

            Originally posted by nissannx View Post
            I literally bent the 'arm' on my gas pedal to make it closer to the brake and thus made heel'n toe easier.
            I've done this before in a 2000 Civic SiR but cannot bend the solid plastic reinforced arm on my new 2014 Civic, it's just that little bit too far away...
            Tod.
            Crew Chief: - CTCC Car #41
            www.twinlakesmc.org

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            • #36
              Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

              Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
              The real question then becomes do you put the clutch in at the start of the braking zone of wait until you downshift at the end of it? My guess is it depends a bit on the brake balance of your car. I have tried it both ways and am not really sure which is better.
              I prefer keep the clutch out until I'm about to downshift, that way it takes less blip to get the revs up than if the engine has had a chance to settle down to idle.

              All depends on how quick your engine revs down or back up though I guess.

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              • #37
                Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                BTW Klaus is absolutely right about the other error of downshifting too earlyin a braking zone. The real question then becomes do you put the clutch in at the start of the braking zone of wait until you downshift at the end of it? My guess is it depends a bit on the brake balance of your car. I have tried it both ways and am not really sure which is better.

                The time to - press clutch - shift - release clutch - would likely not take more than a second or two ... I would always do this when it is the time to shift gears. With the gearing in my car I often have to shift down from 5th to 3rd (at Calabogie I have to do this 4 times per lap) and I always go through every gear 5th - 4th - 3rd and press the clutch twice and two blips ... still enough time for the braking.
                Klaus
                BMW 325es
                Solosprint SGT2, #192
                Solo 2 D/Mod, # 192

                The older I get, the faster I am ...

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                • #38
                  Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                  The question becomes, at least with a rear wheel drive car, does the engine braking that occurs with your foot off the gas upset the front / rear bias of your particular vehicle or are you better off totally disconnecting the drive train from the equation during braking. Certainly with my Camaro it was better to keep the clutch pedal out to help prevent rear wheel lock up
                  Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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                  • #39
                    Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                    Spencer: No need to change your pedals - or even over analyze things. Just get some seat time.

                    Your M3 pedals are in the perfect position, and the brake pedal is along side the gas pedal when the brake engages.

                    Keep your heel on the floor, get the ball of your foot on the brake, and roll your foot so the side catches the gas. You can practice on the street, but you need to be on the track to master it.

                    Likewise with your shifting motion. At the school, you were getting hung up between gears trying to jam it into gear fast. Slow down, do it while you're braking, then speed up when you can do it consistently. The M3 tranny has a great feel to it. Try less brute force and more finesse!
                    sigpic
                    Rob McAuley
                    TAC President

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                    • #40
                      Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                      I've had different people instruct me on various methods to Heal and Toe, the one that works best for me is as follows:

                      1. Start Braking
                      2. Push in Clutch
                      3. Downshift to appropriate gear
                      4. At appropriate point bring revs up (either a blip, or something more gentle if you can which may be less unsettling to the car)
                      5. Let out the clutch

                      All you BMW owners may want to consider the Throttle and Brake pedal set that Turner Motorsports sells, the picture shows the set I bought for my beloved Fox Body Mustang (which needs all the help it can get).

                      My Mustang is so underpowered (with little engine compression) that just downshifting without doing a Heal and Toe, or bringing up the revs, seems to work not too badly either; however I want to learn to do things properly for future use of course.
                      Attached Files
                      sigpic
                      No one is interested in all the things you didn't do !

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                      • #41
                        Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                        Every time I watch this video I smile.....It is Max Papis on a road course in a NASCAR truck using a "dog box" transmission. I know most people don't have a dog box, but it's cool to watch. And ohhhhh the sound!!!

                        What is neat about this video, Max uses both styles of down shifting. 1) Use the clutch and blip, and 2) use left foot braking and blip the throttle and slip in in gear (once you get rolling with a dog box you don't really need a clutch, but the left foot braking while blipping the gas can be tricky). Upshifts are lightening fast; just a quick lift on the trottle, grab a gear and go. Who needs flappy paddles lol

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jQC_g_3O1E
                        sigpic

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                        • #42
                          Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                          Thanks for the post Chris, the type of "heel and toe" downshifts he uses at the 2:12 to 2:30 area of the video is what I try to do ( just not as well).

                          As you can see, totally different from what Hurley Haywood is talking about in the Porsche.
                          Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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                          • #43
                            Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                            Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                            Thanks for the post Chris, the type of "heel and toe" downshifts he uses at the 2:12 to 2:30 area of the video is what I try to do ( just not as well).

                            As you can see, totally different from what Hurley Haywood is talking about in the Porsche.
                            Never see heel and toe like that before. Isn't rotating ball of your foot easier since it helps stabilize the application of brake force?
                            Jonathan Liu
                            #60 BMW E46 M3

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                            • #44
                              Re: Tips on Heal and Toe

                              >>Isn't rotating ball of your foot easier since it helps stabilize the application of brake force?<<

                              The Turner Motorsports pedals allow the driver to rotate the right foot on the brake pedal to be able to press the accelerator pedal with the heal of the right foot. I find this much more comfortable and controllable with respect to applying consistant/ample force to the brake pedal (while being able to apply throttle when required with my budget sized heal).

                              As with many things in life there are multiple ways of doing things, different sttrokes for different folks so to speak.
                              sigpic
                              No one is interested in all the things you didn't do !

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