OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

[Greg Campbell]

Although it is not yet July and we are halfway through the OTA season, and it seems like we could fit more events into an OTA season. It's a shame that although this is the Ontario Time Attack series one of the premier tracks in Ontario is not on the schedule, and want to know if there is interest in adding Calabogie to the calendar for future years. I know this topic has been discussed before, but I wanted to poll the forum and understand what the challenges are.

Distance
As I understand it, the biggest hurdle is the physical distance to Calabogie for most OTA competitors (given many live in the GTA). However with the strong turnout for SMP this past weekend, there are obviously those within the series that are willing to travel and stay over. Is is reasonable to say that if you are driving 2.5 hours and camping, driving 5 hours isn't that different?

Cost
'Bogie is one of the more expensive facilities to rent, however with the recent cost increases at CTMP, is the cost of renting really that different these days?

Marshals
I heard a rumor that there was a licensing issue with the Calabogie marshals. Is this true?

Attendance/Revenue
Even if some GTA competitors would be willing to drive and camp there would certainly be some who wouldn't which could pose attendance challenges and ensuring the event was feasible. That said, there is a strong community of drivers/racers who use Calabogie on a regular basis. Is there an opportunity to tap into this pool of potential entrants, either by marketing the event to them, or by co-hosting a time attack day? A co-hosted event also give opportunities for inter-club competition (i.e. top 5 fastest vs. top 5 fastest, fastest on street tires, etc.) and helps reduce the headaches of having to fit other prepped cars into our rule book.

Accommodations
While (to the best of my knowledge) camping on site is not permitted at 'Bogie, there are a number of cottage rentals available given the resort nature of the town. Many of these cottages are in close proximity which could facilitate the after hours social atmosphere that is popular among the OTA camping set.

Track Configuration
Similar to SMP, Bogie has good configuration options. The short track (which eliminates the long straight) dramatically changes the character and pace of the lap and makes it much less of a 'power track'. Running the short track on Saturday and the full track on Sunday provides for good variety; especially now that the DDT can only be run in one direction.

I acknowledge that I am personally biased (being in close enough proximity to 'Bogie to be able to drive there and back in one day). But what are your issues/concerns/thoughts?

Thanks.

[kmorris]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Maybe this needs to be revisited next year. The cost structure for the other events has certainly changed a lot since the last trip out there.

It feels to me like we are grappling with the overall cost of the series right now though - if it gets too expensive to run the whole thing, we could see a drop in overall participation.

Maybe we could have a few 'core' tracks, and others that we visit every other year. Not sure how much harder this would make it to manage the track rentals and such. I would think that having a consistent event/date year over year should make it easier.

[Greg Campbell]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Just for clarification I was not asking the forum to consider adding 'Bogie for this year, but to consider it as a possible event for future years.

Sorry for the ambiguity.

[Merkur_XR]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

I would think that additional track time as optional would be a good thing as long as the 5 events to score did not change. What would the harm be in adding this and even TMP if the attendance issues could be satisfactorily managed to not hamper the organization. But hay I am a novice what do I know.

[Chuck Atkins]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Calabogie is definitely a great track but cost, traveling distances and number of competitors have been a problem in the past.

To make it work we would have to include competitors from Quebec. In the past this has been a problem because the two different organizations class cars differently. At the present time, I don't know if the same issues exist but I suspect that they do. This has presented a major hurdle in the past.

Camping has been allowed on the grounds and their are several motels and resorts in the immediate area.

To consider this for 2015 we would need a very strong commitment from competitors that they would be willing to attend the weekend event.

To include more events means that the minimum number of events would increase as well. The past has taught us that even though we are motorsports enthusiasts there is a limit to the number of events that competitors will attend. This appears for now to be 7.

[Greg Campbell]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Calabogie is definitely a great track but cost, traveling distances and number of competitors have been a problem in the past.

What I am curious if these concerns still hold today, but more importantly to have a discussion about what competitors would need to see to minimize the issues.

To make it work we would have to include competitors from Quebec. In the past this has been a problem because the two different organizations class cars differently. At the present time, I don't know if the same issues exist but I suspect that they do. This has presented a major hurdle in the past.

I have thought about this a bit, a couple of things:

- MCO has held what they call the 'Inter-provincial Cup' for autocross with huge success for several years. This competition has MCO and CADL (Quebec) auto-crossers compete at both the MCO location (ScotiaBank Place) and the CADL location (PMG Technology Center). Their solution for the classification difference is to have each club have their own classification system in place for each event and the Inter-provincial competition comes from non-classification metrics (fastest overall, fastest 5 from each club, etc.). Effectively the Inter-provincial Cup is a way of hosting a larger event and drawing from a wider pool while still maintaining the integrity of your own classification system and championship.

- There is a Quebec based time attach group (Track and Time) that runs at Calabogie and Shannonville under a very straightforward classification system. Their competition structure is for each vehicle to have a transponder and hold open lapping to measure fastest times. Their would need to be a negotiation about how to structure the practice vs. competition runs, but the OTA system of morning practice and afternoon competition heats is a fairly straightforward concept. Also MCO has a large (60+) core group of lapping participants that attend their lapping days at Calabogie, but MCO does not maintain a Time Attack Division. Across these two organizations there is likely some pend up demand here.

- I would imaging that the Ontario 1500 is facing similar classification teething, but if people buy into the spirit of the event, classification hurdles can be .... hurdled...

Camping has been allowed on the grounds and their are several motels and resorts in the immediate area.

To consider this for 2015 we would need a very strong commitment from competitors that they would be willing to attend the weekend event.

Not to put you on the spot, but could you estimate what that minimum number would be? Keeping in mind that cost consideration could be dealt with by sharing the track rental with another organization. A good minimum number of competitors better deals for group accommodation could be arranged.

To include more events means that the minimum number of events would increase as well. The past has taught us that even though we are motorsports enthusiasts there is a limit to the number of events that competitors will attend. This appears for now to be 7.

Given the concerns about distance would it be possible to include an addition event without increasing the minimum number required for the championship?

[Chuck Atkins]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Very good points Greg.

When the 2014 season is complete, the OTA Committee will then start to formulate plans for the 2015 campaign. We will certainly look into a return to Calabogie if the organizing clubs can make it work. We would need approximately 85 competitors to make it viable.

One of the major differences between classifying cars in Quebec is our tire rule. They don't agree with it so don't use it. This creates a lot of undue stress for our timer as the Quebec cars rin in the same classes but on R-comps and even slicks. There are no +5's or +10's.

The classing system for the ON 1500 is a completely different animal and is based on 7 classes all running on streets.

I/we are always open to suggestions so we will revisit this at the end of the season as we do every year.

[Chuck Atkins]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

A couple of points about this poll Greg that I think should be changed:

1. What are the specific, "under certain circumstances"?
2. You might want to include a range of possible event fees.
3. Actual names would be more appropriate so that we can determine the validity behind the numbers. Remember that this is an open forum so basically anyone can vote.

[Carguy]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

A couple of points about this poll Greg that I think should be changed:

1. What are the specific, "under certain circumstances"?
2. You might want to include a range of possible event fees.
3. Actual names would be more appropriate so that we can determine the validity behind the numbers. Remember that this is an open forum so basically anyone can vote.

For those who select "under certain circumstances" simply add "please specify by posting in this thread". The poll cannot anticipate all the circumstances.

For the record I would love to have some OTA events at CMP, so what I'm about to post is intended to spell out the real problems for OTA to run at CMP. I don't have any solid solutions to offer for these issues yet. However, by raising them maybe others can offer suggestions.

I can relate to those who have an issue with the travel time and cost. If you're coming in from Oakville, or worse St Catherines, Hamilton, or Kitchener it takes a day to travel one way and a day to travel back. Add 2 days of events to that and you're looking at a 4-day weekend. That cuts into vacation time and funds especially IF you use your vacation time for activities other than track time. That's my issue with Grand Bend.

If memory serves the last time OTA held an event that ran at CMP there were upwards of 75-80 competitors (from Ontario and Quebec) at the 2007 Canadian SoloSprint Championship. We had a timing system fiasco and there was barely enough time to get 1 timed session completed. If it takes that many competitors to make the event viable, don't expect to run too many laps in practice or in competition. Perhaps a single shootout style event (1 warm up, 1 hot, 1 cool down) for all timed sessions would work better than our current 3 hot lap format.

As for MCO competitors participating in an OTA event don't get me started. I have been with various incarnations of OTA since 2003. The most MCO competitors I have ever seen at a single OTA event is 5. For many years now there have been 3 MCO regulars at OTA and last year there were 2 MCO regulars. Note that we had 4 MCO members(!!!) attend events 3 and 4 just recently - wow! The proximity of CMP to Ottawa is to blame for the lack of participation recently, but historically MCO members have had no time for OTA. I don't see that changing. I believe that very few MCO members attended the CADL Time and Track event last year. Add to that the fact that OTA is competing with MCO lapping days (4 events), 1MoreLap evening events (11 low cost events) and the GT Challenge (9 events, 2 test & tune). Most MCO participants will have committed time and funds to those CMP track activities as a priority. If you get more that 2-3 signups from those groups you'll be doing well.

On a more positive note, I don't think there is a need to compete under 1 rule set as Greg mentioned. Each organization could score their sessions independently and since CADL uses transponders there can easily be 2 timing systems. Griding and clerking would have to come from a single source and operate according to a mutually agreed protocol between OTA and CADL.

[ONdriver]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Can someone come up with a "ballpark figure" for what an event fee would be if say 40 competitors showed up and we didn't want OTA to lose any money!
That would help put that aspect into perspective.

[Merkur_XR]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Can someone come up with a "ballpark figure" for what an event fee would be if say 40 competitors showed up and we didn't want OTA to lose any money!
That would help put that aspect into perspective.

Must be MIR like price to rent that track because that Ottawa group is charging $350 for lapping and that's for Noon to 5.

[condor888000]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Actually it's $350 for a full day, including an instructor, lunch, and a t-shirt. $150 for the morning only, which consists of 3 sessions, and $200 for the afternoon only, which is 4 sessions.

The 2 hour 1MoreLap evening events (5-7pm, open track) are $130.

Speaking as someone who has never done an OTA event (primarily due to distance), but has done MCO days, 1MoreLap evenings, and Calabogie GT Challange, I would love an OTA event at CMP. The track is a blast, especially short track.

[Saj5DJ]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

Assuming baby and significant other grant me permission to go, I'd certainly be up for it.

I have been to 'bogie once and absolutely love the track.

I can see how it would be an issue to get the number of runs in with its long laps though.

The other big downside is that I would really need this to be an 'option', i.e if this is two of our 7 and there's a good chance that the cost and logistics force me to take it as both my drops for the season...then the series becomes more difficult for me to compete in.

[Chuck Atkins]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

On the second day of the event we did get 3 timed sessions in because we resolved the horrendous number of flags from the day before.

For those who select "under certain circumstances" simply add "please specify by posting in this thread". The poll cannot anticipate all the circumstances.

For the record I would love to have some OTA events at CMP, so what I'm about to post is intended to spell out the real problems for OTA to run at CMP. I don't have any solid solutions to offer for these issues yet. However, by raising them maybe others can offer suggestions.

I can relate to those who have an issue with the travel time and cost. If you're coming in from Oakville, or worse St Catherines, Hamilton, or Kitchener it takes a day to travel one way and a day to travel back. Add 2 days of events to that and you're looking at a 4-day weekend. That cuts into vacation time and funds especially IF you use your vacation time for activities other than track time. That's my issue with Grand Bend.

If memory serves the last time OTA held an event that ran at CMP there were upwards of 75-80 competitors (from Ontario and Quebec) at the 2007 Canadian SoloSprint Championship. We had a timing system fiasco and there was barely enough time to get 1 timed session completed. If it takes that many competitors to make the event viable, don't expect to run too many laps in practice or in competition. Perhaps a single shootout style event (1 warm up, 1 hot, 1 cool down) for all timed sessions would work better than our current 3 hot lap format.

As for MCO competitors participating in an OTA event don't get me started. I have been with various incarnations of OTA since 2003. The most MCO competitors I have ever seen at a single OTA event is 5. For many years now there have been 3 MCO regulars at OTA and last year there were 2 MCO regulars. Note that we had 4 MCO members(!!!) attend events 3 and 4 just recently - wow! The proximity of CMP to Ottawa is to blame for the lack of participation recently, but historically MCO members have had no time for OTA. I don't see that changing. I believe that very few MCO members attended the CADL Time and Track event last year. Add to that the fact that OTA is competing with MCO lapping days (4 events), 1MoreLap evening events (11 low cost events) and the GT Challenge (9 events, 2 test & tune). Most MCO participants will have committed time and funds to those CMP track activities as a priority. If you get more that 2-3 signups from those groups you'll be doing well.

On a more positive note, I don't think there is a need to compete under 1 rule set as Greg mentioned. Each organization could score their sessions independently and since CADL uses transponders there can easily be 2 timing systems. Griding and clerking would have to come from a single source and operate according to a mutually agreed protocol between OTA and CADL.

[Chuck Atkins]

Re: OTA Calendar - Space for Calabogie?

I will get you a rough figure tomorrow Perry.

Can someone come up with a "ballpark figure" for what an event fee would be if say 40 competitors showed up and we didn't want OTA to lose any money!
That would help put that aspect into perspective.