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Scratching my head

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  • #16
    Re: Scratching my head

    The interesting influence on the tire wars is the SCCA change to 200 tread wear ratings for Autocross. Dunlop has the new Star Spec, BFG has the new Rival S and Bridgestone has the new RE 71R.

    Given that my regular Rivals heat cycled out last year well before they wore out, I have real concerns that the new tires are basically just Autoslalom tires and not really suitable to Time-Attack. On Regular R Comps, my fastest lap would usually be my 3rd but since going to "street" tires, I am nearly always slower on the last lap as the tire has overheated.

    There are some interesting conversations on at least one other board where the point is being made that "street" tires are no longer anything like a street tire. In the quest to get that last tiny bit of performance for a 60 second run, the tire loses a huge amount of longevity. The argument has been made that even in Autocross, these new tires don't last any longer than a Hoosier A6 or A7 although they cost as much and don't perform as well.
    Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

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    • #17
      Re: Scratching my head

      Originally posted by iamthewheelman View Post
      I switched to RS3's halfway through last year from Rivals, both 225/45/15, and went about a half second to a second faster on the RS3's depending on the track.
      ditto.
      rival cycled out 3-4 days. 1+sec slower.
      rs3, fastest lap is last one before cording.

      rival/kool aid/hype/paid endorsements from 'experts' (hollis etc.)
      never again.

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      • #18
        Re: Scratching my head

        Originally posted by endura View Post
        ditto.
        rival/kool aid/hype/paid endorsements from 'experts' (hollis etc.)
        never again.
        To be fair to the kool aid, they DID seem really fast. For one day.

        Unfortunately a test is usually that long as well.
        Barry

        Citizen Cone Dodger

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        • #19
          Re: Scratching my head

          Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
          The interesting influence on the tire wars is the SCCA change to 200 tread wear ratings for Autocross. Dunlop has the new Star Spec, BFG has the new Rival S and Bridgestone has the new RE 71R.

          Given that my regular Rivals heat cycled out last year well before they wore out, I have real concerns that the new tires are basically just Autoslalom tires and not really suitable to Time-Attack. On Regular R Comps, my fastest lap would usually be my 3rd but since going to "street" tires, I am nearly always slower on the last lap as the tire has overheated.

          There are some interesting conversations on at least one other board where the point is being made that "street" tires are no longer anything like a street tire. In the quest to get that last tiny bit of performance for a 60 second run, the tire loses a huge amount of longevity. The argument has been made that even in Autocross, these new tires don't last any longer than a Hoosier A6 or A7 although they cost as much and don't perform as well.
          It's been a looooong winter, and I've spent far too much time reading autox forums. Fruits of my wasted time:

          First: ZII Star Spec has existed for a while now. Just wasn't available in US until more recently.
          Second: Rival S was a direct response to the Rival not working well with the laid down rubber at SCCA Nationals in Lincoln.
          Third: Bridgestone have really not been in the super fast street tire game since the RE01-R reigned supreme. They were very much "due".

          So far, there's no 200TW tires (inc. the RE71R) that wear anywhere nearly as badly as an A6. Or that cost nearly as much. There some very, VERY bitter and vocal SCCA folks that have a huge hate on for autocross moving into street tires for stock, and they are working very hard on forums to misrepresent how fast some of these tires are wearing. All the anecdotal chat you've read about how the RE71 is an A7 sheep's clothing is based on one RSX Type S on an abrasive surface with too much camber and terminal wheel spin issues. Other reports from cars as wide ranged as WRX's, Focus ST's and WRX's haven't found the same issues. Also, reports seem to indicate that the RE71R's take heat like a champ.

          As much as these folks want to scream "Cheater tire!" the fact is that CSP Miatas on A6's are still pulling over 1.6G. Street tires ain't ever getting you there.

          Some of the Chump/Lemons discussions are probably more germane to Time Attack. They're finding the ZII Star Spec and RS3 to be the gotos and, while the peak performance does drop as the heat builds, it stabilizes just fine on a longer run.

          What Time Attack wants from a street tire is just as odd as what autocross wants from a street tire after all.
          Barry

          Citizen Cone Dodger

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          • #20
            Re: Scratching my head

            Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post
            To be fair to the kool aid, they DID seem really fast. For one day.

            Unfortunately a test is usually that long as well.
            correct. on par with the old rs3's.
            -"great, now I just need minor setup/pressure adjustments and I'm good to go"
            -1 month later "there's either something wrong with my car or my driving has regressed"
            -2 months later "still haven't figured out what's broken on my car"
            -end of season, new rs3's. immediately 2 seconds faster.
            -talk to friend who never switched to rivals.
            Attached Files

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            • #21
              Re: Scratching my head

              Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post

              Some of the Chump/Lemons discussions are probably more germane to Time Attack. They're finding the ZII Star Spec and RS3 to be the gotos and, while the peak performance does drop as the heat builds, it stabilizes just fine on a longer run.

              What Time Attack wants from a street tire is just as odd as what autocross wants from a street tire after all.
              What's also worth noting is that US SCCA Solo II competitors have a fanatical affinity for pursuing the 'optimum' set up; even trading cars every year to ensure they are in the fast car for the class. They are willing to do crazy set ups that compromise their car for any other use in the name of pax. Stuffing 255s on a 6.5 inch rim may be du rigure in the US, but it doesn't do us any favours having a tire with no feel and terrible breakaway at the top of turn #2 at MIR.

              What is nice to see is that we may have a good alternative to the nearly ubiquitous RS3. The new Dunlop appears to have better heat management capabilities and the RE-71 appears to be track capable (ultimate lifespan and treadwear on track are to be determined). Even the Rival S, which many have claimed as being too soft and heat intolerant for the track could probably be made to work in the right hands (say a stripped out CRV driven by an experienced pilot who can repeatedly get the most out of the car on the first lap before it overheats).

              Despite the internet hand wringing that 'the sky is falling' and that the new crop of street tires are just treaded Hoosiers, I think we are in a bit of a golden age of street tires. With more choices we all win. I thought I was stuck between AD08R vs RS3 as my only options, but I could probably make a 275 RE-71 rear work for me, and that's before we know anything about the pending Kumho v720 (due sometime in 2015) or the rumored 2016 Hankook RS4 and Yokohama replacement.
              Greg.

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              • #22
                Re: Scratching my head

                Originally posted by endura View Post
                correct. on par with the old rs3's.
                -"great, now I just need minor setup/pressure adjustments and I'm good to go"
                -1 month later "there's either something wrong with my car or my driving has regressed"
                -2 months later "still haven't figured out what's broken on my car"
                -end of season, new rs3's. immediately 2 seconds faster.
                Did all of this. Except step 1 and 2 was on the same damn weekend.
                Barry

                Citizen Cone Dodger

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                • #23
                  Re: Scratching my head

                  Originally posted by endura View Post
                  ditto.
                  rival cycled out 3-4 days. 1+sec slower.
                  rs3, fastest lap is last one before cording.

                  rival/kool aid/hype/paid endorsements from 'experts' (hollis etc.)
                  never again.
                  Not to play the Devil's Advocate angle, but has anyone tried running a stretched Rival? Seem to me that a soft sidewall and or lack of communication could be improved with a good 'tuner-YO' stance.
                  Greg.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Scratching my head

                    Originally posted by Greg Campbell View Post
                    Not to play the Devil's Advocate angle, but has anyone tried running a stretched Rival? Seem to me that a soft sidewall and or lack of communication could be improved with a good 'tuner-YO' stance.
                    225 on 9's.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Scratching my head

                      Ditto. And the sidewall is waaay stiffer than an RS3.
                      Barry

                      Citizen Cone Dodger

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                      • #26
                        Re: Scratching my head

                        Originally posted by endura View Post
                        225 on 9's.
                        Touché.
                        Greg.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Scratching my head

                          The Pilot Sport Cup 2 is probably the street tire with the most heat capacity now.

                          I was frustrated by the Rival but it is not a soft or vague tire. Just slidey.
                          03 Z06 #72
                          15 Prius V

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                          • #28
                            Re: Scratching my head

                            Originally posted by Lloyd_ View Post
                            The Pilot Sport Cup 2 is probably the street tire with the most heat capacity now.

                            I was frustrated by the Rival but it is not a soft or vague tire. Just slidey.
                            aren't those 80 treadwear?
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Re: Scratching my head

                              Originally posted by KLZEMX6 View Post
                              aren't those 80 treadwear?
                              180:

                              http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Sport+Cup+2

                              Not many useful sizes for non supercars though.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Scratching my head

                                Originally posted by wparsons View Post
                                180:

                                http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Sport+Cup+2

                                Not many useful sizes for non supercars though.
                                The 991 GT3 & 981 GT4 come with these as standard and they are 180 wear rating.They are a triple tread compound and look like they should be a great tire.I am running 19's and their sizing is not that great for my M4.

                                http://www.michelin.ca/tire-selector...2/tire-details
                                2015 F82 M4

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