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WIL at event #3

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  • Dave Barker
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Unfortunately, what works in Autocross may not be good for 30 min races and we in Time-Attack are caught in the middle. According to a number of folks the newer faster tires tend to fall off in performance fairly quickly when hot. For me that can be 1 lap at SMP long track. This would be ok I suppose if we ran all our events like the shoot out.

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  • Saj5DJ
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    The new breed of streets (RE71R & Rival-S) aren't lasting as long as the current guard, but they're not at Hoosier levels yet, as Sam would like to imply.

    From the autox world anyway, folks that previously saw 180ish competitive runs on RS3's are reporting seeing 140ish competitive runs on the new stones.

    The main thing is that folks south of the border are showing up to National Tours and winning on 100+ run RE71R's/Rival-S's. Sam shows up to (and frequently wins) each major event with sticker Hoosiers. I'd say actions speak louder than words there.

    Anyway, happy to let you guys know how I get on with my Rival S's this year. First two events say they're damn fast....

    The availability thing, well that the usual first delivery cycle for a hot new tire thing. It would be more accurate to say "currently out of stock" than "no longer available". As always, the folks that do their research and take the risk of jumping fast on the hot new thing get an advantage... It certainly worked out that way for me at Picton.
    Last edited by Saj5DJ; 06-27-2015, 11:07 AM.

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  • Dave Barker
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post
    That particular guy (I know exactly who it is) has a huge, huge axe to grind about stock class autocross moving to streets. He frequently, at best, engages in serious hyperbole and , at worst, outiright lies to further his agenda.

    I honestly saw him and a couple of others like him in Lincoln 2013 with T-shirts that read "You can pry my Hoosiers from my cold, dead hands". Not likely to get an objective view there

    Spews on every forum he can get his keyboard on too. I would caution against taking anything he says seriously and recommend other avenues of research if you want some genuine insight.
    Barry, if we are talking about the same guy, a certain Corvette driver from New England whose first name is Sam, he at least this year is a bit happier with Bridgestones (no longer available from Tire Rack in the sizes he and others are using).

    OTOH, his points are quite valid. Obviously Hoosiers couldn't be a spec tire for Time-Attack and at least the ability to drive to the track on the tires you compete on, is a big advantage but the street tire situation now may not save any money over the old situation of having to buy multiple sets of short lived "race" tires.

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  • Saj5DJ
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
    Frankly I find it a bit sad that we can't use a spec tire. (Yes I know it is not feasible given that no manufacturer makes a wide enough variety of sizes but just sayin".....).
    Wellllll.... Hoosier does.


    Geez. Can you tell I'm missing OTA this year guys? I'll slope off back to the autoslalom forum now

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  • Saj5DJ
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    That particular guy (I know exactly who it is) has a huge, huge axe to grind about stock class autocross moving to streets. He frequently, at best, engages in serious hyperbole and , at worst, outiright lies to further his agenda.

    I honestly saw him and a couple of others like him in Lincoln 2013 with T-shirts that read "You can pry my Hoosiers from my cold, dead hands". Not likely to get an objective view there

    Spews on every forum he can get his keyboard on too. I would caution against taking anything he says seriously and recommend other avenues of research if you want some genuine insight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave Barker
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Frankly I find it a bit sad that we can't use a spec tire. (Yes I know it is not feasible given that no manufacturer makes a wide enough variety of sizes but just sayin".....). The NASA American Iron , Spec Miata and Spec E30 series used Toyo RA-1s with great success for a number of year. Took tire performance almost totally out of the question.

    It would be better if all the tires that were at least of similar performance were more easily available.

    Certainly on one Corvette forum, one of the successful national autocross champs has also lamented that the newest tires don't seem to outlast Hoosiers, sometimes cost more, are less available, come in fewer sizes and most importantly aren't as fast as Hoosiers.

    One of the whole reasons we came up with tire PIP rules was to save some cost yet now we are all chasing the new "it" tire. Wish I had a good answer to the problem.

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  • Saj5DJ
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    If that's the only compounds they wish to provide us with, then those are what we compare.

    They're also in the same tire classification for OTA so... rather begs the comparison.

    I would take the point that no one should EXPECT the R888 we can get to be as fast as the TD we can get. And I don't think anyone does.

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  • Slowpoke
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by Saj5DJ View Post
    RE71's and Rival S's are now demonstratably faster than the RS3's. TD's are faster than NT01's. R7's are faster than R6's.

    R888's haven't been worth talking about for a long time. A048's for even longer.

    Question is, are all the categories losing time consistently? Does the TD push treaded R-comp game further than the RE71R pushes the street tire game?

    Treaded R-comp's (at least in OTA) have lonnnnng been overdue a renaissance. Now what will the folks that complained RS3's are too fast compared to R888's say?
    Yes, there's an evolution in chemistry, but I'm stunned to see otherwise educated competitors comparing TD SOFT's to R888 MEDIUM compound and A048 MEDIUM HARD compound, which is all Toyo and Yokohama have wanted to bring to North America in recent years. Other compounds exist, but it is a marketing / business strategy that Hankook is utilizing that Toyo and Yokohama haven't. Yet.

    Bring Yokohama A050 Softs to North America, Toyo R888R GGG or SG compounds and we'll see what happens.

    We need more back-to-back data on the Pirelli P-Zero Trofeo R's vs. TD as well.

    One thing is clear, it's a great time to be a racer.

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  • wparsons
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by 3wheeler View Post
    Camber gain on mcpherson strut cars depends almost entirely on the angle of the lower control atm. There is no upper control arm with this design which means the pivot point at the top of the strut is fixed. In Grants situation, the ride height on the front is a little too low, which means the lower control arm pulls the hub inwards under compression while the top of the strut stays in a fixed location- this causes a loss of camber. This is why you do not want to go so low in strut cars where the lower control arm is no longer parallel with the ground(at the very least). You need a lot of static camber with cars that utilize front struts for this reason. Or, you use ball joint extenders to correct the geometry when lowering a car. Unfortunately I see a lot of slammed cars at the track with no consideration for the above.
    And to make matters worse, his car (like mine) is multilink or double wishbone rear, so the camber curve out back really accentuates how bad it is up front

    Ideal static camber on a car like that will definitely be very different front/rear

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  • thgear
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by 3wheeler View Post
    Camber gain on mcpherson strut cars depends almost entirely on the angle of the lower control atm. There is no upper control arm with this design which means the pivot point at the top of the strut is fixed. In Grants situation, the ride height on the front is a little too low, which means the lower control arm pulls the hub inwards under compression while the top of the strut stays in a fixed location- this causes a loss of camber. This is why you do not want to go so low in strut cars where the lower control arm is no longer parallel with the ground(at the very least). You need a lot of static camber with cars that utilize front struts for this reason. Or, you use ball joint extenders to correct the geometry when lowering a car. Unfortunately I see a lot of slammed cars at the track with no consideration for the above.

    A really good solution is custom uprights, but that's $$$.

    the MK4 VW chassis is the only one I'm aware of that had a 3rd party manufacturer (Canada's own H2Sport) develop an upright with a lower ballpoint attachment point.

    Everyone else (big budget racing) has someone custom CAD it.

    Another somewhat effective solution is balljoint extenders.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3wheeler
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Camber gain on mcpherson strut cars depends almost entirely on the angle of the lower control atm. There is no upper control arm with this design which means the pivot point at the top of the strut is fixed. In Grants situation, the ride height on the front is a little too low, which means the lower control arm pulls the hub inwards under compression while the top of the strut stays in a fixed location- this causes a loss of camber. This is why you do not want to go so low in strut cars where the lower control arm is no longer parallel with the ground(at the very least). You need a lot of static camber with cars that utilize front struts for this reason. Or, you use ball joint extenders to correct the geometry when lowering a car. Unfortunately I see a lot of slammed cars at the track with no consideration for the above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chuck Atkins
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by Grant Galloway View Post
    The problem with my car isn't static camber, its the fact the car doesn't gain camber on compression of the suspension.

    Not sure how we can correct this? Aside from increasing the ride height..

    The rear of the car has an upper camber link, and doesn't suffer the same problem.

    I ordered a new tire today....

    New brake pads, heavier rear sway bar, and a small diet is coming for the car. Hoping to do really well at Grand Bend.

    Grant
    Take it to Scott at Can-Alignment Grant, he should be able to fix your issues.

    Leave a comment:


  • KLZEMX6
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by Grant Galloway View Post
    The problem with my car isn't static camber, its the fact the car doesn't gain camber on compression of the suspension.

    Not sure how we can correct this? Aside from increasing the ride height..

    The rear of the car has an upper camber link, and doesn't suffer the same problem.

    I ordered a new tire today....

    New brake pads, heavier rear sway bar, and a small diet is coming for the car. Hoping to do really well at Grand Bend.

    Grant
    My car gains a lot of camber on compression aand I start out with 3.5". I ran as high as 4.2 when it was still on street tires with softer suspension

    Leave a comment:


  • Grant Galloway
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    The problem with my car isn't static camber, its the fact the car doesn't gain camber on compression of the suspension.

    Not sure how we can correct this? Aside from increasing the ride height..

    The rear of the car has an upper camber link, and doesn't suffer the same problem.

    I ordered a new tire today....

    New brake pads, heavier rear sway bar, and a small diet is coming for the car. Hoping to do really well at Grand Bend.

    Grant

    Leave a comment:


  • nowcritical
    replied
    Re: WIL at event #3

    Originally posted by scorcherjf View Post
    For what it's worth... my lateral G's according to my AIM are no better on my NT01's versus my street tires (Pirelli Pzero & Michelin PS2) at DDT and TMP. What I do get from the NT01's are consistency though, whereas my street tires will get greasy after a few laps, the NT01 stay quite consistent throughout a 20 minute session. This doesn't do me any favors for competition, though. That said, I don't think I'll be running NT01's next season - probably a newer generation extreme-performance street tire like the RE-71R or even the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (180 treadwear rating on those, can you believe that?).
    Love my stock Sport Cup 2's not sure how long they will last however. Just make sure you pray to the sun god as rain is not something you want to experience with these. They seem to be very consistent and tend not to over heat and get greasy.

    Leave a comment:

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