Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2020 Ontario Time Attack - Competitors Meeting

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 2020 Ontario Time Attack - Competitors Meeting

    Good evening foks!

    Our first blast of winter is upon us and OTA is already looking at the 2021 season to kick off. Unfortunately, Covid-19 continues to rear its ugly head and an in-person meeting will not be possible in the near future.

    Our first order of business is to officially kick off the competitor's meeting which has been slated for December 6th (Sunday) at 2pm via a ZOOM meeting.

    Please compile your list of suggestions for rule changes and the OTAO will also put forth new rules we are planning to implement and/or clarify.

    Sign up for the meeting here and you will receive an email with the Zoom link confirming your signup:

    http://msreg.com/OTA2021CM

    Cheers.

    Kevin Wong
    OTA Chief Timer
    Kevin Wong
    GT3 / STR / C-Stock Plus Honda S2000 #111
    2020 OTA Chief Timer

  • #2
    Folks, here are some of the topics up for discussion for the meeting on Dec 6. No final decisions will be made until after the competitors' meeting in consultation with the car classification committee and the OTA organizer committee.

    1) Discussion re changing the tire rules or making certain tires exempt from their 200 UTQC rating. (Note that the CCC feels we should not do this as every year there is going to be a new fastest tire and the 200 UTQC rating is likely pretty meaningless). At issue is that presently the RE71R and Yoko A052 are not available in larger sizes.

    2) Add new rule to the rule book that coilovers are 6sPIP. (Note that this is the most likely to be misinterpreted rule in initial PIP schedule requests. Coilovers are springs AND shocks, not just springs)

    3) Suggestion of making light weight fly wheels and drive shafts authorized modifications

    4) Suggestion re tightening up the rules concerning trimming of rear bumper skins .

    5) Discussion re what is and what isn't allowed in the alignment 1sPIP, in particular as concerns bushing materials.

    6) Making potential changes to the rules re engine vs whole drivetrain swaps

    7) Discussion re limits to rear diffusers

    8) Discussion re changes in base car classifications for
    a) BRZ/FRS/Toyota 86 up HI by 5 ?
    b) Hyundai Veloster N up HI by 10-15 ?
    c) Honda Civic type R drop HP to 320-330 range given more recent data ? (OEM says 306)

    So far we have also had competitor suggestions to

    A) decrease the number of classes

    B) only use iPAX for overall scoring and not class scoring

    C) how to deal with "cheater" tires.

    We are happy to start discussions here and continue with the meeting scheduled for Dec 6. Please note that this is a competitors' series and the only interest of the organizers is making the series the most equitable yet competitive it can be.
    Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
      c) Honda Civic type R drop HP to 320-330 range given more recent data ? (OEM says 306)
      .
      Geez, where can I get one of these 320-330hp stock Type R's? ;-).

      Okay, okay, I know I can get a bit more power than the stock 306hp if I use 94 Octane race gas (which seems to be allowed with no PiP's?) - but that's true for pretty much every recent performance car with a factory turbocharger.

      Anyway, I'm just whining and I just got access to this forum again. I seem to have conflicts with almost all of the SoloSprint events every year ...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
        So far we have also had competitor suggestions to

        A) decrease the number of classes
        I favour keeping the number of classes as they are. The range of classes in OTA allows a person to compete against other cars that are closely matched, without having to do extensive mods to their car. CSCS has fewer classes already; OTA does not need to be more like CSCS.

        Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
        So far we have also had competitor suggestions to

        B) only use iPAX for overall scoring and not class scoring
        While I argued against iPax when it was first proposed, I have now come to appreciate it. It's hard to see the point of using iPax for overall scoring but not class scoring. It should be iPax used for both, or not at all. I favour continued use of iPax.

        Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
        So far we have also had competitor suggestions to

        C) how to deal with "cheater" tires.
        What are people defining "cheater" tires to be? This requires further explanation.
        Jim (aka "Lawrence" in results)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by craig View Post
          Geez, where can I get one of these 320-330hp stock Type R's? ;-).

          Okay, okay, I know I can get a bit more power than the stock 306hp if I use 94 Octane race gas (which seems to be allowed with no PiP's?) - but that's true for pretty much every recent performance car with a factory turbocharger.

          Anyway, I'm just whining and I just got access to this forum again. I seem to have conflicts with almost all of the SoloSprint events every year ...
          Now that I am a Civic Type R owner, I obviously have a personal interest in lowering our claimed HP numbers for this car. OTOH, my totally informal survey from Type R forums and a few local dyno shops reveals that after correcting for different dyno types, we have results ranging from 310 to 341 crank HP totally stock on readily available fuel, no higher than 94 octane. Originally the CCC picked a higher number and modified it slightly to 338hp at the crank but that seems a bit high. Unfortunately it is also not likely that OEM power is only 306.

          BTW, Jimmo-san, last year's "cheater" tire was the Yokohama A052 and the year before it was the Bridgestone RE-71R. We have no idea for this year. Both Yokohama and Bridgestone claim a 200 UTQG rating but very few people believe that and there is no standard testing to prove or disprove it. It is most unfortunate that these tires are not available in all sizes and have very limited track longevity meaning although they are fast, they are expensive. We do not feel capable of being up to date enough, especially before the season starts, to decide which tire is better than the others and by how much. I understand why a competitor (or competitors) would suggest making special exemptions for different tires but we feel we cannot do this fairly at this time.
          Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

          Comment


          • #6
            It would seem that virtually every sanctioning body and series throughout North America has accepted the 200UTQG Treadwear system as the line that divides DOT street tires from DOT motorsport tires. Those sanctioning bodies that have tried to rate individual tire performance rather than using the industry 200 UTQG have all arrived at the same conclusion, that such a series specific grading system creates more problems than it solves.

            Now matter which tire model you look at, there isn't one that comes close to offering all the potentially popular sizes in either DOT motorsport tires or 200 UTQG tires or 240 UTQG endurance tires. I agree with Dave, if the OTA goes the 200 UTQG Treadwear system, then it would not be possible to offer special exemptions.

            Jud - TeamVDG - OTA#47

            'Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy' by Browne & Frey

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by craig View Post
              Geez, where can I get one of these 320-330hp stock Type R's? ;-).

              Okay, okay, I know I can get a bit more power than the stock 306hp if I use 94 Octane race gas (which seems to be allowed with no PiP's?) - but that's true for pretty much every recent performance car with a factory turbocharger.

              Anyway, I'm just whining and I just got access to this forum again. I seem to have conflicts with almost all of the SoloSprint events every year ...
              Hey Craig,

              Put your car on a dyno and send your results to Dave Barker with or without 94 Octane.
              Jud - TeamVDG - OTA#47

              'Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy' by Browne & Frey

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                BTW, Jimmo-san, last year's "cheater" tire was the Yokohama A052 and the year before it was the Bridgestone RE-71R. We have no idea for this year. Both Yokohama and Bridgestone claim a 200 UTQG rating but very few people believe that and there is no standard testing to prove or disprove it. It is most unfortunate that these tires are not available in all sizes and have very limited track longevity meaning although they are fast, they are expensive. We do not feel capable of being up to date enough, especially before the season starts, to decide which tire is better than the others and by how much. I understand why a competitor (or competitors) would suggest making special exemptions for different tires but we feel we cannot do this fairly at this time.
                OK, thanks Dave, got it. :-)

                Jim (aka "Lawrence" in results)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post
                  Now that I am a Civic Type R owner, I obviously have a personal interest in lowering our claimed HP numbers for this car. OTOH, my totally informal survey from Type R forums and a few local dyno shops reveals that after correcting for different dyno types, we have results ranging from 310 to 341 crank HP totally stock on readily available fuel, no higher than 94 octane. Originally the CCC picked a higher number and modified it slightly to 338hp at the crank but that seems a bit high. Unfortunately it is also not likely that OEM power is only 306.
                  Congratulations! :-)

                  [blatant plug] Get yourself some acuityinstruments.com mods! [/blatant plug]

                  338hp is definitely possible on a stock motor - when optimized to zero pip rules. The stock vehicle will make more power as octane rises from 91 right up to 100RON (subject to the next paragraph). People dynoing are almost all running 94; but cars are factory rated at 91. Changing from 91 to 94 is a zero pip mod, isn't it? It isn't like there are 94 ratings for every car.

                  Regardless, the issue with almost all of the dyno tests of the car is that they were done with an open hood. The car makes more power at high rpm with an open hood. (I'm not talking about heat soak.) Runs with closed hoods have expected wheel hp for the local rated crank hp (don't make me search, but the runs showing this were first done in Germany just after the cars were released in Europe - so these were Euro motors being dyno'd, but the reasoning is the same.)

                  The reason the cars make less power with closed hoods is that the air filter housing's cold air inlet had an issue with engines ingesting water in car washes. This was discovered very, very, late in development; so the fix was to partially block the cold air inlet (whose top is formed by a shape made in the underneath of the hood). Not sure about the 2019+ cars, but 2017/2018 cars have a rubber dam about 1"x6" at the entrance to the air filter housing to block water. The dam has no airflow/water blocking effect when the hood is open, so dyno results have higher hp. If you look at images of the pre-release production and the press cars at the 2017 intro at iCar, Tremblant, and Lauzitzring<sp?> you will see some cars have the dam; but others do not.

                  This is also why the aftermarket air filter box replacements that do more than make more noise or reduce filtration add a second cold air inlet to the airbox - and gain "up to" 20hp as a result. The airflow restriction at higher rpm is that great. My tests agree with the vBox acceleration differences from stock/results presented here: http://www.eventuri.net/products/hon...ic-fk8-type-r/ (Given how much Carbon Fibre costs, you better believe that I tested it!)

                  FWIW, I don't know who else has been running a Type R, but at Mosport a couple years ago both myself (slow) and the factory guys (fast) were running airbox replacements that bypassed this rubber dam - which is a zero pip mod I believe?

                  So yes, the car will have more than 306hp and still have zero pips within the rules. My question is: Does the base car classification assume that every car is fully taking advantage of all zero-pip mods? If so, then I can't argue with 338hp.

                  Originally posted by Brutus View Post

                  Hey Craig,

                  Put your car on a dyno and send your results to Dave Barker with or without 94 Octane.
                  Jud, I actually had dyno time/tuning planned for this past spring, but then the border closed. However, I do have mods, although I do run the stock ECU programming on the street as it is relatively easy to switch back and forth between maps/parameters.

                  ... which leads to another question: If the ECU has been unlocked to accept changes, but no other changes are currently programmed in the ECU, is the ECU still modified as far as PiPs are concerned?



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by craig View Post


                    This is also why the aftermarket air filter box replacements that do more than make more noise or reduce filtration add a second cold air inlet to the airbox - and gain "up to" 20hp as a result. The airflow restriction at higher rpm is that great. My tests agree with the vBox acceleration differences from stock/results presented here: http://www.eventuri.net/products/hon...ic-fk8-type-r/ (Given how much Carbon Fibre costs, you better believe that I tested it!)

                    FWIW, I don't know who else has been running a Type R, but at Mosport a couple years ago both myself (slow) and the factory guys (fast) were running airbox replacements that bypassed this rubber dam - which is a zero pip mod I believe?






                    ...


                    Some cars do better with aftermarket cold air intakes than others but anything in front of the MAF is considered zero PIPs. We classify cars in bone stock configuration as the gains actually realized with certain mods may not be the same as claimed by aftermarket manufacturers.
                    Mobil 1 Time-Attack # 4, CCC Member

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post

                      Some cars do better with aftermarket cold air intakes than others but anything in front of the MAF is considered zero PIPs. We classify cars in bone stock configuration as the gains actually realized with certain mods may not be the same as claimed by aftermarket manufacturers.
                      4.8.1.3 says in front of the turbo, except 'OE' airflow sensor and the throttle body (throttle body is after the turbo anyhow). You could spend a few $k on a Titanium J-Pipe between the turbo and the CAI for a little more overheating resistance and power (with tuning).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good afternoon folks!

                        There will be slide deck emailed out to all registrants for tomorrow's competitor meeting. It has summarized what Dave B. posted and includes the competitor's suggestions from our end of season survey.

                        Please check your inbox/spam.

                        Thanks!

                        Kevin Wong
                        Kevin Wong
                        GT3 / STR / C-Stock Plus Honda S2000 #111
                        2020 OTA Chief Timer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Additional points on the discussion of "not enough competition in classes" point from yesterday's competitor's meeting:

                          1) 2020 is obviously not a representative season for OTA
                          2) if a competitor finds he/she is the only competitor to complete 5/6 events in a class, concentrate on trying to improve your standing in the overall standings instead (you've won your class by default)
                          3) convince your friends, frenemies, family, co-workers, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, to compete in OTA to increase the number of competitors :-)
                          Jim (aka "Lawrence" in results)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Any idea on when direction will be given on tires? (i.e. what will be considered 0 PIP).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by johnny5 View Post
                              Any idea on when direction will be given on tires? (i.e. what will be considered 0 PIP).
                              Unless you're planning on going with an obscure 180 treadwear tire, assume it will be 200-249 as "street" with the Toyo's currently allowed also as street.

                              The only thing we were planning to possibly consider was making the Toyos (R888, R888R, RA-1 and NT-01) have a slight bonus of -2 PIPs. <-- This is just a consideration and by no means an official statement.

                              Kevin Wong
                              Kevin Wong
                              GT3 / STR / C-Stock Plus Honda S2000 #111
                              2020 OTA Chief Timer

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X