rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

[thgear]

okay here is my question:

under the free seat modificati (driver, passanger, or rear removal), when i take out my spare tire and rear seats for a track day, my rear end rises considerably (close to an inch if not 1.5)

i wish to install rear springs from another golf of same year into my car that are lowered from stock about an inch or so.

when the car is fully loaded, the car will obviously be lower, but on race day the hight will be "stock"

the spring rates are near identical and vary by no more than 5-10lb/in and this has been documentated by the VW community at vwvortex.com

can i use these springs and not incur any PIPs?

[Anamaria]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

I don't think so.... but I really want to hear this answer, because I just went back to stock springs to move down a class...

[thgear]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

as far as i understand the rules and had Dave give me a response last season

if height is not changed
and spring rates are not changed

then your suspension has, in effect, not changed

i am simply returning the car to "stock balance" after it has lost that balance due to the removal of some odd 90 pounds from the rear of my car.

[h-bomb]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

as far as i understand the rules and had Dave give me a response last season

if height is not changed
and spring rates are not changed

then your suspension has, in effect, not changed

i am simply returning the car to "stock balance" after it has lost that balance due to the removal of some odd 90 pounds from the rear of my car.

A inch rise in ther rear end with a 90 lb removal, assuming a 1-1 motion ratio (which would be a pretty good estimate with rear struts) would mean an average spring rate of 45 lb/in! That's soft!

Hanif

[thgear]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

wish i measured before and after, the springs are in fact stiffer than that! 120 lb/in

but the rise in the rear is noticable.

ohh and there are no struts in the rear, the spring and shock are seperatly attached (in fact i can change the springs in under 10 minuets...

[ScotcH]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

Sorry, but this definitly qualifies as a modification to springs. I would find it highly suspect that a lowering springs has the same rate as a regular spring ... it just doesn't make sense.

[thgear]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

the "sports" option for any VW uses springs of near identical rates (check chart at the bottom) but utilizes stiffer and shorter bumpstops with higher spring rates(or i should say, buffer rates) for the "stiffer feeling"

the springs simply reduce the shock travel and the stiffer buffers engage sooner.

since every single VW is identical weight aft of the drivers seat, there is no reason to change the spring stiffness, only the front rates ever change to accomodate the different weights of engines and things like sunroof or what not.

the whole idea is that WHEEL RATES have to stay constant, since the rear weight almost never changes, you can keep the rear spring rates the same to get the same wheel rates

since the front wheel rate will change if you put a heavier or lighter engine in the car, the front spring rates change a bit, but again not by much

you can see here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1464067

and here:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothrea...23931#27023931 (check out at the bottom)

and here is a pic of the different style buffers: the shorter one is stiffer and i used in the sports models, the longer one is the one i have in the car, it is softer and can compress more before binding
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1124933&page=5

i'm telling you guys, if there is a difference between spring rates, i guarantee it is no greater than 5-10lb/in

with VW's its all in the buffers...

and buffers are covered under the Shock modification......

if anyone has access to a spring test i will be more than happy to drop by and test out the two sets of springs (which i have many now in my garage.. ahahahah)

[Slowpoke]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

Are the springs wound to the same shape? Some OEM springs go for that "progressive" spring rates on the cushie model vs. more "linear" spring rates on the sport model, even though they are all nearly the same rate.

But this would be a can of worms. If "eahhhh... it's only 5-10 lb difference" became the idea:

An 02+ Subaru WRX manual sedan could swap it's 119lb rear springs for 129lb automatic trannie springs.
An 02+ Subaru RS could swap it's front springs with an 01- RS to get 8lbs stiffer
An 02+ Subaru WRX manual Wagon could use 02+ sedan automatic springs OR the heavier Auto Trannie springs are only 12lbs higher at 144lb/in... Same thing, no?

A 5-10lb change in spring rate is rate 4.2% to 8.3% change on your car. Where should the line be drawn? If that's the case, should an STi with 224lb front springs be able to go up 18lbs with no penalty?

It's the same OEM part number or it isn't. I think that if it was available as on option from the dealer that year, you have the option to convert to the full option package for it and change your class accordingly, no?

[thgear]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

A 5-10lb change in spring rate is rate 4.2% to 8.3% change on your car. Where should the line be drawn? If that's the case, should an STi with 224lb front springs be able to go up 18lbs with no penalty?

that is why i'm asking, where is the line drawn?

also you use 224 front springs, and a heavy car, i'm using 120 rear springs, and a lighter (than STI) car, spring rates are all relative, and in fact what matters more is WHEEL rate, not pure spring rate. I would not be suprised at all if the wheel rates of an STI were near identical to any other "sporty" car out there.

It's the same OEM part number or it isn't. I think that if it was available as on option from the dealer that year, you have the option to convert to the full option package for it and change your class accordingly, no?

as per chart, as you can see VW came out with a very large assortment of springs, all colour coded differently. As has been discussed by other VW users, you sometimes get the same "car" with different set of springs, sometimes you even get oddball cars with springs that were never even meant to be in there, all differentiating with 5-10 lb/in....


again i'm obviously approaching the fine line of the rules, but as happens to be the case, our rules dont exactly encomass everything.

for instance everyone gets a "free" removal of the spare tire and jack, and assuming the front seats stay in placei, "free" rear seat removal.

i get twice as much weight thrown out of my car than lets say a honda, that has a small sized spare as opposed to my full, probably a lighter jack, and back seats that weigh close to nothing, while mine could be considered a weapon in some states....

or for instance carbon fiber hoods.

on my car, a carbon fiber hood will net me about 5-10 lb savings. at 50lb per pip, this is obviously not worth it.

a carbon fiber hood on something like an 80's mustang or commaro, while i dont know for certain, is bount to net much greater results.

see where i'm getting at?

[Erik Z]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

I'm interested in this too as it may apply to a situation I am in...

If these springs are part of a "sport" option package that you could have ordered for your car from the factory, I believe it's permissible under the definition of OE spec parts in section 5.4.1 of the rules:

"...original equipment parts, or the exact equivalent to original equipment replacement parts, that could have been purchased on that "production vehicle" in conjunction with all original equipment specifications, and installed by the manufacturer..."

But... does this mean that you have to equip the FULL sport option package and not just the springs for this swap to qualify as OE?

Also, as for the ride height, what state does the car have to be in for it to fall within the factory specifications? "Race" trim with driver and full fluids... or...?

[craig]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

Y'know, almost 10 years ago, someone who was very respected in the Solo community was protested for doing something very similar to this. He didn't ask first, though.

[craig]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

(the above was meant for Serge, not Erik.)

But... does this mean that you have to equip the FULL sport option package and not just the springs for this swap to qualify as OE?

I don't know, but I do know there is a lot to the option . Some of the stuff helps for Solo; other parts slow the car down for Solo.

Also, as for the ride height, what state does the car have to be in for it to fall within the factory specifications? "Race" trim with driver and full fluids... or...?

Porsche's (and any German car's) factory specification for setting ride height is very clear, as the height (and alignment) specs are always to DIN 70020 (full fuel tank, spare wheel, and tools).

In any case, I don't think anyone will care. Almost every 944 or 911 that I've seen in recent years has been reset to a lower-than-US/CA stock ride height.

Myself, I had the ride height at stock for a couple of years for Solo2 (the old rules), and hated it.

[Erik Z]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

I don't know, but I do know there is a lot to the option .

No kidding. I've got most of the M030 suspension bits sitting in my garage waiting to be installed (that is, once I FINALLY get the car back from the engine rebuild...). As much as I'd love to get the additional parts I'm missing to complete the package, they are either irrationally expensive or too hard to find.

If what I have can be considered factory optional OE parts, then I throw them on the car, stay within North American ride height specs, and have a fun summer getting slaughtered in GT2. If I need to comply with the full 100% M030-spec, then I have to take a sizeable chunk of additional PIPS for much-less-than-optimal parts and I'll have a fun summer getting slaughtered AND notably outclassed in GT1. In which case, I might as well make what I can of the situation and lower my ride hight...

If for no other reason, I just want to figure this out before I go ahead and buy the wrong set of vinyl or magnetic numbers/class letters for the season.

Myself, I had the ride height at stock for a couple of years for Solo2 (the old rules), and hated it.

Having never driven the car outside of North American ride-height specs, staying within them is of no great concern to me since I don't know what I'm missing...

[James Mewett]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

okay here is my question:
i wish to install rear springs from another golf of same year into my car that are lowered from stock about an inch or so.

when the car is fully loaded, the car will obviously be lower, but on race day the hight will be "stock"

the spring rates are near identical and vary by no more than 5-10lb/in and this has been documentated by the VW community at vwvortex.com

can i use these springs and not incur any PIPs?

When we say OE ride height, we assume that the car has OE springs and the spring perches are non-adjustable. The ride height is thus non-adjustable and simply works out to whatever it works out to. I suppose if a car came with adjustable spring perches, then OE ride height would mean adjusted to OE specs per the service manual.

What I am saying is that we aren't going to allow you to use shorter springs for free to get your lightened car back to what was normal ride height in a fully laden car. Nor do we want to get into a discussion about spring rates and free lengths etc.

I would direct you to 5.9.3.7 though:

"Updating or backdating of suspension components is permitted provided all of
the following conditions are met:
i. the components installed come from the same model (but a different year)
ii. the components are directly interchangeable without modification
iii. the two model years have the same SUSP rating"

This does give you some wiggle room with respect to OE springs. Demonstrating that each of the conditions is met is your responsibility.

[thgear]

Re: rule clarification regarding spring upgrades.

the last two points i can meet.

but the first point is a bit vague (for me) and i'm having trouble fully understanding it, which is really why i'm making this post, somehwat.

can you perhaps rephrase it somehow, or provide an example?