Announcement

**Dave Barker** · 03-23-2016, 09:45 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

So far 74 views and no comments. The reason I posted here was to try and see what the interest is from people that don't routinely run Time-Attack.

Do these RTC classes seem attractive to you?

**MEANMCHN** · 03-30-2016, 02:15 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Completely open and probably going to get flak for this but just my opinion/why I don't compete but do around 10 lapping sessions at CTMP every year.

Classes:

Many cars are under 7lbs per HP. My relatively complete interior Mustang with a 4 pt cage is ~3,200lbs depending on how much fuel I'm carrying. My horsepower is 550-600 crank hp depending on the tune, temperature, etc., which gives me a ~5-6/hp, so I'll always be in the same class with the likes of a McLaren or other "specialty" cars. My little Mustang is the Mustang that could and does a great job, but put even a relatively experienced driver in the seat of a "specialty" car and they'll beat up on my 1:29-1:33s at CTMP all day.

Tech:

I was told that in addition to my Schroth Profi-II 6 HANS harness I would have to run the stock seat belt over top. Which makes no sense.

My car is a regular at HPDE, I've been off track once in 15 years at CTMP because I blew up my engine on the back straight. Yet when it comes to tech the rules make me basically have to either butcher my car to compete OR have it completely stock. There is no grey space.

Conclusion:

I've given up on Time Attack, and I've gone as far as removing the 6pt harnesses and going to more comfortable seats and a 4pt harness just for HPDE because I'm not welcome in TA.

How to fix it:

Open the door to well modified street cars, stop with the fine print. You'll have a ton more people attend and will allow people who have the money to do HPDE but not enough to spend on a dedicated race car to attend.

Flame on fellas, Flame on.

**Slowpoke** · 03-30-2016, 03:05 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

No flames, just want to understand. I'm guessing you had a CASC-OR legal roll bar since they allowed you to run the Profi 6, but must have asked you to use a stock belt because the harness was more than five years old, correct? From a liability standpoint, it's something that OTA hasn't solved.

What butchering are you required to do for OTA beyond the four point you already had?

**MEANMCHN** · 03-30-2016, 04:30 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

The cage is up to spec and the driver's harness is one year old. However, this was one of the strangest issues I've come across, is that the passenger belt was out of date by 2 years which made me ineligible.

In terms of butchering it just seems that the sport has the wrong focus on it. The heavily modified purpose built machines vs. the enthusiast who just wants to drive against the clock. In order for my 6lb/hp to be competitive I would really have to shave another 500lbs out of the car, switch to a full slick, short/long arm suspension, etc., etc.

If you want to build a sport where you have a big field is simply to tech each car to a reasonable standard and have a waiver. Honestly reading 70+ pages of rules is exhausting and really at the end of the day new drivers have NO clue how to approach it.

I realize it's a weird comparison but one of the most inclusive competitive sports is Crossfit. The standards and rules are simple and everyone competes against everyone, it's an open format.

I'd love to compete in Time Attack, and you will have my money as soon as the rules change.

Here is what I would suggest:

1. Vehicle safety should be to "reasonable" standards. I have been doing HPDE for years and have never seen someone spend their hard earned money show up completely unprepared. Sure, everyone can pin point one or two minor examples over a career of racing, but generally people aren't stupid and other competitors typically call out major issues before they happen.

2. Limit classes/divisions. Generally people just want to get out and drive, and they compete to try out a new track and may be go a little faster. But a better format would simply be Class A and B, Class A races for a podium spot, Class B just wants to get out and race and see what time they do.

The reason I say this is that when I look at a Time Attack event there are typically 20 people there, having a complex points system and this weird up/down category based on X just defeats the fun.

Make it fun and people like will show up. Simplify the entire system. General walk around inspection, Choose Class A or B, Waiver, Pay, Fun.

**John P** · 03-30-2016, 05:29 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

OTA - Time Attack has always had Mod1 class where you don't have to classify. Designed for highly modified cars like yours. Just show up and run, provided you meet safety requirements. If your passenger belts are expired then remove them and don't carry a passenger.

Or run RTC in Unlimited class without the expired passenger belts or get new belts, if you want passengers during the morning lapping sessions.

JohnP

**MEANMCHN** · 03-30-2016, 06:23 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Or just make the entire thing simple.

My whole question is do we need 70+ pages that say if you have lowering springs that you're somehow MASSIVELY faster than someone without? I've had my ass kicked by a virtually stock Cayman GT4 with a great driver and I've kicked the ass of a McLaren driver.

I've never come across a Mustang that is anywhere the same as mine, every M3, Miata, McLaren, you name it is different in some way. Whether it's the driver or their K&N Filter.

Have a look at the car, 99% of the time you can tell by a few glances what's up. The sport needs less "It's September and these belts expired in August" and more "It's got seat belts that work."

I'm honestly trying to help, I'd love to join you, but the rules and classifications are something that just makes the entire process no fun.

**Dave Barker** · 03-30-2016, 06:46 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Scott, I don't think you understand the new RTC rules. The weight to HP classification is based on how your car comes from the OEM, not how it is now after being modified. The new RTC rules don't care how you modify your car other than your choice of tires and adding forced induction.

You do not need a PIP schedule or to declare any modifications other than as previously mentioned. The safety part of the rules is necessary for our insurance but with the new RTC classes, we don't care how prepped you are.

RTC classes are designed for people just like you, i.e for cars that have a bunch of mods that don't really fit well into our PIP schedule and PAX scoring, so you don't have to run against a factory supercar.

RTC classing also cuts about 20 pages out of the rule book.

**MEANMCHN** · 03-30-2016, 08:29 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

I still don't quite buy the insurance/rules thing.

I was asked to put a 3 point factory safety belt that no longer retracted on it's own because it was 15 years old OVER a 6pt Schroth harness that was brand new from Schroth. All because my passenger belt was out of date... I wasn't even in the same seat as the out of date belt. It's this massive over exaggeration/interpretation of the rules that makes inclusion impossible.

Even at 50 pages the rule book is too long. Simplify the whole thing.

I know people like to win in the CBAMOD1456 (sic) class that has 1 competitor in it, but the sport gets diluted that way. Run it like a HPDE, people with loads of experience and a perfectly prepped car in a class, people with experience and a road legal car in a class, and people with no experience "arrive and drive" in another class.

There's no reason this can't happen and when I see 50-100 people paying $600-700 for a day of driving on the track at an HPDE and 20 people paying $250 for the same day of driving on the same track I just see a problem with the event.

This is all coming from someone who would LOVE to join up and give you my well earned loot, but there's a 50+ page PDF that's impossible to follow without at least 10 hours of research and a tech inspector that's way too by the book in the way. Be like the cops that let you off for 10km/h over the speed limit, sure it's breaking the rules, but who's it going to hurt.

**GT42RR** · 03-30-2016, 09:31 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Originally posted by MEANMCHN View Post

There's no reason this can't happen and when I see 50-100 people paying $600-700 for a day of driving on the track at an HPDE and 20 people paying $250 for the same day of driving on the same track I just see a problem with the event.

This is all coming from someone who would LOVE to join up and give you my well earned loot, but there's a 50+ page PDF that's impossible to follow without at least 10 hours of research and a tech inspector that's way too by the book in the way. Be like the cops that let you off for 10km/h over the speed limit, sure it's breaking the rules, but who's it going to hurt.

MEANMCHN not sure its even worth pushing the point. I have been trying to explain this to OTA now via this forum via phone and even email. I don't feel I have been gaining any traction as Gerry was supposed to get back to me yesterday about my proposed classes.

See y'all at JRP on Sat, I may bring a megaphone just to make sure some of this OTA board can hear me.

**DavidSim** · 03-30-2016, 09:43 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

>>Do these RTC classes seem attractive to you?<<

I think the RTC classes are a step in the right direction, it appears to me that the OTA people are trying to make changes that will attract more competitors and that is a good thing.

The cost of an OTA event is a bargain, particularly at the CTMP big track, I'm planning to be there in June the good Lord willing to run my car.

I wish everyone well.

**Dave Barker** · 03-30-2016, 09:53 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Originally posted by MEANMCHN View Post

I still don't quite buy the insurance/rules thing.

Even at 50 pages the rule book is too long. Simplify the whole thing.

.

When we have the rules, ASN expects us to follow them for them to insure us. Not sure about the passenger seat belt issue but I am sure we can work something out with the scrutineer.

BTW the rule book is only 50 pages and the last 30 pages do not concern RTC competitors, I don't think there is enough in the rule book to put you to sleep at night. Seen the SCCA Autocross stuff?

What is your base Mustang's wgt/hp? Knowing that will allow you to easily find out what class of RTC you would run in.

Originally posted by GT42RR View Post

MEANMCHN not sure its even worth pushing the point. I have been trying to explain this to OTA now via this forum via phone and even email. I don't feel I have been gaining any traction as Gerry was supposed to get back to me yesterday about my proposed classes.

See y'all at JRP on Sat, I may bring a megaphone just to make sure some of this OTA board can hear me.

Sorry GT42RR, but the Ontario Time Attack organizers ( OTAO) has decided that rather than mimic other rule books to suit a limited number of competitors with a more restrictive rule book, we will try and entice more competitors by using a more open style book. I am sure that some of your customers will find it a reasonable way to compete, even if it isn't exactly the same as some other rule books. After all, RTC rules are designed to be just about as unrestrictive as they can be.

**GT42RR** · 03-30-2016, 10:27 PM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post

Sorry GT42RR, but the Ontario Time Attack organizers ( OTAO) has decided that rather than mimic other rule books to suit a limited number of competitors with a more restrictive rule book, we will try and entice more competitors by using a more open style book. I am sure that some of your customers will find it a reasonable way to compete, even if it isn't exactly the same as some other rule books. After all, RTC rules are designed to be just about as unrestrictive as they can be.

Hey Dave its no sweat off my back we have other options. I was just trying to help OTA from falling off the cliff. Its funny you say the GTA rules suit a limited number of competitors. Those rules are the global standard for time attack these days.

Also Mr. "Time Attack Director" follow through with a email please, I sure did work hastily to try and help your series.

**DavidSim** · 03-31-2016, 07:36 AM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

>>Hey Dave its no sweat off my back we have other options. I was just trying to help OTA from falling off the cliff<<

The world is about compromise sir, there are always multiple paths to a goal but at some point someone needs to put their stick on the ice and do what is best for ALL concerned.

You can really help out by burying the hatchet and bringing your car out to support the organization, and the sport in general; we are blessed with a number of great tracks here in Ontario for your pleasure, there are many good/dedicated folks involved in the organization who are making it all possible at a very reasonable cost, come out and focus on having fun and being thankful that we have the opportunity to do so in this crazy world of ours.

>>Also Mr. "Time Attack Director" follow through with a email please, I sure did work hastily to try and help your series<<

I am not sure if this statement demonstrates passion or entitlement, not knowing you and who you are I'll assume it's passion.

**MEANMCHN** · 03-31-2016, 11:27 AM

Re: New Time Attack classes for 2016

Originally posted by Dave Barker View Post

What is your base Mustang's wgt/hp? Knowing that will allow you to easily find out what class of RTC you would run in.

My Mustang's stock weight is around 3340lbs I believe and came from the factory with 260HP.

However, these figures don't tell the whole story. It's a muscle car, it doesn't have Traction Control or ABS. I've had to replace nearly everything just due to 15+ years of track use.

The engine uses a factory sourced Windsor block that came stock in this car. But it is larger displacement, heads, cams, etc., etc. basically everything. I figured since the 4th time I blew it up at CTMP I'd have it built better instead of sacrificing stock engines to the back straight gods.

Also, my new setup will be using these belts:

https://www.schrothracing.com/compet...m/profi-II-asm The FE version as they are street legal.

The car is used on the street/insured/road/e-missions legal. As such I have limiting factors such as having to run factory catalytic convertors that remove significant amounts of power.

I'd like to compete, but know it's all just for fun and I'd rather not go through the entire tech process just to be told something weird like I'm not using chrome enough lug bolts.

I have the car at the track virtually every Apex HPDE and if you're there maybe we can just get the scrutineering out of the way.

Thanks!

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New Time Attack classes for 2016

New Time Attack classes for 2016

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